Table Talk: The bag of what-not

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Via Experimenta
45

The Form may be different, but the technique is the same. Also, even looking closely at the section on similar spells, no mention is made of the similar spell having to be the same Form. For the Technique that's a given, but Form? It might be considered a "Closely related effect".

As for the guidelines, both CrCo and CrAn have "Base 15: Heal a Light Wound" (for example).

I'm not saying that the all Corpus healing spells should be considered similar spells to any Animal healing spell. But The Chirurgeon's Healing Touchmight be considered similar to Soothe Pains of the Beast. They're both rituals that heal a Light Wound, with the same R/D/T, using a base that is the same level and reads exactly the same. Both use Creo and heal the body of a living creature. The only difference is that one is Corpus, while the other is Animal.

Now, I recognize that the difference in Form may be considered too large a step if combined with something else, even the severity of the healed Wound. But I would suggest that if the Form is the only difference, the spells might qualify as similar spells.

I rest my case. I'll accept the judgment of the court. :wink:

46

Emphasis mine above:

If the only difference is Co vs. An, I'll buy it.
Vary any other parameter as well, an it's not related - yay?

47

So the closely related effect is to heal? Meaning works on plants, too?

IMO a closely related effect is like CrIg guidelines for fire damage, CrCo guidelines for healing wounds of differing severity. The effect stay within the same TeFo combination. Keep in mind that this benefits anyone with a focus in Healing, which does go beyond TeFo combinations, and helps them above and beyond what the focus does.

Is it really a close effect to heal a light wound on an animal and a light wound on a person?

48

I agree with JL that the spells are not similar. Otherwise, the system is open to too many other similarities: ReAu ~ ReAq ~ ReTe? All three allow the movement of an element to possibly propel a vehicle? I think the similarty is stretched too thinly across forms to allow it.

49

So we have 2 people who believe it could be a similar spell (a body is a body), and 2 who believe it cannot be (different Forms).

Not a similar spell, then. Doesn't matter, it's only a small bonus.

The only difference it will make is that, instead of improving Animal a bit before inventing from scratch Animal versions of known healing spells, Petronius will acquire an Animal healing spell and learn it first, so that it can provide similar spell bonus to further Animal healing spells. Different ways to [strike]skin[/strike] heal a cat. (pun intended) :wink:

50

I'm kicking off a Tribunal set of threads over in Bibracte for the 1227 Tribunal[1]. Mons Electi is the host for the Normandy Tribunal and is relatively close to the border of the Rhein Tribunal. If you want to picture/imagine what your characters might look like at that time, you can consider yourself welcome over there.

I'll post a notification over here when those threads ripen a bit.

Additionally, if you think your characters might compete in any of the Normandy Tournament events[2], please let me know, and we can come up with some estimate of what your characters abilities might look like. And of course, you can simply watch. Praxiteles and Petronius have been involved in the final preparation of the site to host the Tribunal, and Praxiteles always like to show off his works of Art and Architecture[3].

[1] The Tribunal should normally be in 1228, but 1228 is the year of a Grand Tribunal, and so regional Tribunals must move their own Tribunals earlier or later, so that participants can attend.
[2] Please review The Lion and The Lily, if you have it for a listing of events. Mons Electi is strong in the Joust. They have their own self-devised event called Falconball as their event of as host and I need to figure out how it works a bit. Entrants from outside the Tribunal or not members of a recognized Normandy covenant must pay a fee to participate in the Tournament. But, anyone here is welcome to watch and comment in threads, in character, but not actually participate if they'd like.
[3] The site is rumored to be rather magnificent, Mons Electi is rumored to be a fabulously wealthy covenant, in both silver and vis.

51

I'll have Petronius participate, even though initially I was having difficulties figuring why he would be there instead of being at the Rhine Tribunal meeting.

In Bibracte's parallel universe, in 1228 Petronius is now disgusted by Rhine political infighting. So he's looking around to see if Normandy could offers some possibilities for him moving out of the Rhine. We'll see, but I doubt he'll like it any more in Normandy.

I don't have the sourcebook, but it doesn't matter much -- as a Bonisagus he'd be no good at the competitions. He might have a small chance with Certamen, but he'd need to be convinced to participate. We'll see.

52

Rhine Tribunal could happen in the fall, or at another time? Normandy happens to hold theirs, in Bibracte, beginning on the summer solstice. I figure that neighboring Tribunals would hold their gatherings at different times, to maximize visitors and opportunities for trade...

53

I sent a private message to Archimedes last week to check on him. He said he was indeed busy, but was trying to keep up-to-date on the threads. He should be back soon.

Jonathan, I think we can close Chapter 0. Can you update it so it doesn't stay at the top?

54

Done, and I stickied the Chapter 1...

55

I'm still here, but RL has reduced me to a lurker the last couple of weeks. I should be able to post again, but the posts may be on the short side. If there's some set-up chore I've neglected, I won't take offense at a gentle reminder. :confused:

56

I've updated Aedituus' sanctum on the wiki.

57

Can someone give me a citation for Cow and Calf rules? I thought I understood, but something in what Titus posted is not meshing with what I thought. I need to review but cannot find the description.
Thanks.

58

Covenants, p. 95, top of first column.

It is equally likely that I my understanding is off, so I'll try to explain my understanding:

The Cow isn't really any specific physical book - it is what is in the book, the contents.
Each Calf is a physical copy.

Basically, whomever hold the 'Cow' (the rights to the book), decides who can copy the book, and what they can do with their (physical) copies.

If you have written a book and I have been given (or bought or awarded or whatever) a copy (a Calf) under the oath of the Cow and Calf, you still own the Cow. I can't (legally) make copies without your permission - but nor can I give my original copy away for free! I may use it freely, but I may not transfer it without your permission. Much like a lot of modern software EULAs.

Most books are bought by Covenants, meaning every member of the covenant will have acces.

If I (as a single magus) buy a book under the Cow and Calf, I doubt anyone would complain if I allowed other members of my covenant to read the book, but technically that could've been a part of the specific Cow and Calf agreement.

So what does it matter if the Author or his covenant holds the Cow?
As long as everyone get's along, not much really. After that, a lot.

If I have donated a book to the covenant library, along with the Cow, the covenant owns the rights to that book.
If I leave, the covenant still owns the right to that book. They can decide to copy it and sell the copies for vis - or give them away for political gain. I cannot trivially offer the next covenant i wish to join a copy of my work, because I do not own it.
If I enter a feud with another member of the covenant, he still has the right to make copies of the book I wrote, and sell them or give them away (maybe, depending on charter)

If I donate a book to the covenant, but retain the Cow, the situation is different.
If the covenant wants to copy that book, for sale or for gifts, I have to give my permission - the charter may well hold sanctions if I decide against it, but they matter little if I have eg. left the covenant.
If I enter a feud with another member of the covenant and he copies my book and gives these copies away to squander what political capital I was hoping to gain by using it as a gift, he's broken the Cow and Calf, and whatever enforcement it has should move against him.
If I decide to leave the covenant and buy my way into another covenant by offering them copies of my books, I can freely do this, as they are mine to give away.

And that ignores entirely the issues of inheiritance if either the original author passes away or the covenant falls.

59

I pointed this subject out to a friend and was told the following story:

The troupe was playing in the Rhine.
The covenant gained the Cow for books written as covenant services.
The librarian was given the responsibility to expand and protect the library as he saw fit, under the authority of the council.

The librarian had a low-level feud with one of the other characters (not players, purely in character).
He then declared the books of the other magus to be so excellent and important, that they were strategic resources of the covenant, not to be shared or copied - or indeed even discussed with outsiders if it could be avoided.
Suddently his 'enemy' was sorely hindered in gaining that reputation as a master of magic that he needed to become a Master (in the Rhine Tribunal).

Excellent story, but the 'enemy' character surely didn't like it.

60

For the most part, I agree with what Tellus wrote about the Cow and Calf.

One point on which I disagree is that the author no longer has the right to sell or give a copy of his own book if he gave the right of "Cow" to the covenant (or to some other magus). IMO, from what I can see of the ruling as quoted in Covenants (p.95), the Cow and Calf Oath only restricts the buyer of the book from selling or giving copies without the seller's permission.

In the absence of such an oath, both the buyer and the seller can sell or give copies of the book. There is no such thing as "giving the Cow", in my opinion. All you can do is "give only the Calf" or sell an unrestricted copy of the book.

61

Ah yes, true. I think a better for had been "the author can be blocked from ..."

I've seen both practiced.
Let's see what Jonathan says - then everyone has chimed in I think :slight_smile:

62

I have no opinions. The Cow and Calf is really in that undefined space. It's mentioned, and left up to the troupes to figure out.

Praxiteles will probably write very few books.

63

Of course, a contract could be negociated in such a way so that the author would cede all rights to the buyer. But that would be unusual, IMO.

Nothing there to suggest to me that the author is losing the right to sell or give further copies.

But it is indeed left somewhat vague. I would guess this is on purpose, which is perhaps why it was shuffled off as a peripheral ruling from the Hibernia Tribunal (which has no sourcebook yet).

Petronius will write some tractatus, for sure. But he won't be a prolific writer, since the base Quality of his books will only be 8. And since he will spread his study amongst many Forms, he won't be specialized enough to reach scores high enough to warrant writing really good summae. Of his two strongest Arts, Terram is already well-covered in the library (with a L20Q8 summa), while for Rego we have limited sources of study.

Petronius will of course try to secure as much Rego vis as possible to improve his score there, as well as as many tractatus as he can find, but I doubt he'll reach a score high enough to scribe a really good summa. Perhaps L15Q8 over the course of the saga. And by that time, I doubt it will be useful to any of the other senior magi of the covenant. Might still be a reasonable asset for the covenant, though, for visiting magi.

64

Suits me fine - I'm not trying to give away rights, I just want to know.

And the specific context in which I had seen this done as standard, was covenants that demand some service of their members, and in the case of books written demanded the right of the Cow.

Kinda like if you work for a company and write a piece of software on company time, really.