Dammit! And me not playing Tytalus, Flambeau, or Tremere...
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OK, Steve. Bring it!
-K!
Ward against Animals... check.
Ward against Wooden weapons... check.
Ward against Metal/Stone weapons... check.
Ward against Magical Animals... check.
Ward against Spirits... check.
Ward against Demons... check.
Ward against Faeries of the Wood... check.
Ward against Faeries of the Water... check.
Ward against Faeries of the Earth... 
Dammit!
</Eric Cartman voice>
Well, I figured they were just unselieghe elves, which would have been worse. Trolls are no pushover, but, well...
re new Labs:
Maybe I, the player, am kneejerking from previous games where vis was always precious and less than demand, but I don't think we're swimming in the stuff. 7 vis (per tower!) is about 1 vis each. If we have an income of around 30, at first that seems that's ~1/4 of our yearly income. But that's 30, less an Aegis, less perhaps one other yearly Ritual spell, that's closer to an income of < 2 vis/year for each - and +1 vis each becomes MUCH more significant. 2 towers, 14 Vis, could be close to our net for the entire year.
[color=brown](Krys'-
Altho' it's a bit OOC at the moment, could you tell us exactly what the Covenant's final vis Income/Stores are? Broken down by Art, if possible. Our magi would most likely know this soon enough, and before they make these decisions. Or do we need to get more Covenant info to you first?)
I just don't think we should be so debonair about tossing 14 vis lightly in the air, just because we can. (Reminds me a bit of Lottery winners going on a mad spree...) I like the "invest in the future" route- make some magical construction tools, and get a covenant-friendly mason, and begin an urban renewal program. Or a little of each, maybe. (Even if we're not building, raw materials can be sold on the market or used for other causes - that's another source of income/good will, "just in case".)
re Towers required:
We don't need 4 towers, unless we're building much smaller towers than the core spell lists. If we're talking something about the size of the core spell, 2 would provide ample room for 4 magi, for a total expenditure of 14 vis, or maybe less if Dierdre can pull out the right spell.
Note that the 30' (9m) "width" in the spell description seem to be outer dimensions, and inner D's would be much less, so probably a shorter, wider tower would be needed for the 500 sq ft needed for a lab. With walls 5' thick we would need to shorten that 80' (24m) to about 60' (18m), still ample for 4-5 floors. One such tower could house 2 magi and their two labs, on 4 floors, or maybe 3 if they squeezed in. (Altho' using that extra floor for grogs might be the plan? Shield grogs, tower lookouts, servants, etc etc?). The floors need not all be the same, nor, with magic, do they have to be regular, but split-level is possible if you needed it for some more complex layout.
500 sq' is about 22.5' (<7 m) square minimum, which works if we assume walls about 3.5' thick (1.1 meters). This is thin for medieval mundane construction, but for magical... dunno. Some mundane tower walls were closer to 10-15'.
A round tower w/ 500 sq' rooms would be 25' (7.5 m) interior diameter, which would drop the walls to 2.5' - maybe pushing it, imo, but otoh it IS magic.
In either case, a shorter tower (50-60'/15-18m) would allow for larger rooms if not thicker walls, a good idea imo. For 12' ceilings and stone floors, that's 4 stories max. If wooden floors, we might be able to squeeze 5 stories into a 70' tower, just. (The extra floor being for storage/grogs?)
[color=brown]
(Krys- Arbitrary ruling on how thick the magically created walls need to be? They're built "of one solid stone", so... 5'? 3'?)
(As a guess, I'd bet that the floorspace is maximized when height and width are about the same- depending on whether the original spell's tower is square (90k cu') or round (70k cu'), that'd be about 40' (12m) tall x 40 wide (but tall enough for 3 stories), but I'd want to run the numbers.)
Otoh, if we go with mundane construction (augmented with magic), all this is moot, as we can build whatever we need.
Rhiannon needs lab space and the time to both set up her lab and to create her Longevity Potion within two years time- that's our window. Others are not "under the gun", but will most likely at the least want a Sanctum of their own asap, if not the lab itself, within that time as well. Those who "inherited" labs will chip in some time to help - or agreed to at one point, at least.
As for a new tower and the Normans...
Could we Imagonem the top of it to look shorter, maybe? (Tho' here we run into the non-Creo Ritual problem discussed in a forum thread.) Could a Creo Imagonem create the desired effect, to hide the top half of a tall tower from prying eyes? Create the image of the sky behind the tower??? (The alternative would be a non-ritual T-Im spell cast seasonally.)
The Blocked View Replaced
CrIm 20 (Int Req)
Base 1, +1 Touch, +3 structure, +1 moving, +1 complex, +1 req
Creates a copy of the area behind an object (via Intellego Req), constantly changing as that changes. This illusion sits just outside the actual object, and if entered closely the object is visible.
(Or Duration = Ring???)
So, we build a tower, and the top half or more is simply hidden by the illusion of the sky/landscape behind it. (Tough on birds, but the Normans would "never" know.) Lookouts/archers stationed on the top could see out (and further than current structures allow), but not be seen, and that would be an additional bonus.
It would be tough to begin a major (mundane) construction project without some magic to hide it from the Normans, so maybe, for Rhiannon, split the diff and magic one into existence, with the illusion to hide it's true height, and then build the second with the same spell to hide it's progress? (The less the Normans are prompted to worry the better.) Or build the others lower, and avoid the illusion problem.
How about asking if Deidre can create Rhiannons Longevity Potion? She can do without a lab for a while longer, and will have a really good potion. Unless she has really good art scores herself?
Good point- or one of our Verdi's.
CrCo Lab total only needs to be 30+ (yielding a +6 (or more, +1/5), not too intimidating and perfectly adequate for quite a while.
(Cr + Co + MT + Int + Aura 4 + misc bonuses)
Not Mathius I'm afraid, they aren't his fields. His master made his potion.
Brief responses :
Re: Vis - I'll start putting together the vis numbers and sources, and post them. By Saturday Afternoon, my time.
Re: Having Diedre make Rhiannon a longevity potion. I could do this, but since I want to actually play Rhiannon when one of you beta-storyguides, I'd like to keep the playing field balanced, so to speak. Thusly, in all fairness, I'd have to make the offer open to all, or open to none. Everyone would have to agree, or it wouldn't happen. If it does become open to all, one of the secrets of the covenant will be known to lots of people.
Re: Wall thickness - typical stone wall thickness was about 5' in large stone construction that wasn't a fortification, for the outside wall; so our tower's floorspace will be a 20' diameter circle (Pi * 10 * 10) with approximately 314.2 square feet of floor space, well short of the 500 required (friends don't let friends compute half asleep...)(or compose correspondence, either)
Diedre already has a spell that can create a good sized building, similiar to "Conjuring the Wizard's Tower", but with a smaller size; It comes out to L30 (erring high, I think it can be done at L25). If it's a Creo spell, it's a good chance Diedre has it, or can invent it in relatively short order.
Get a large enough work mundane work gang together, and even a castle goes up quickly - in 5 seasons. 2 Townhouses can be built in one season (according to City and Guild, pg 68). Each Lab, as described, is about that size, probably somewhat smaller (about the size of a modern 2 story home, actually, sitting within a 50 x 50 footprint).
Steve
I can understand the attraction to have Rhiannon stand on her own feet- if we start to treat her like just another NPC (or Dierdre as our bitch whenever we need her talents), the feel of the game will not be as solid from here out.
However, it's possible that someone might be able to do it- Daggin's CrCo Lab Total is just a little short.
With 5' (1.5m) walls, a round, 500 sq ft room (~25'/7.5m diameter) would make the outer dimensions about 35' diameter (>10.5 m). If the overall "volume" of the tower stays the same from the spell (70k cu' for a round tower), that's a footprint of about 1000 sq ft total, so about 70' tall. With ~14'/ floor (inc flooring material), that's 5 stories, no prob, plenty for 2 magi and one floor for grogs, if we wanted to do it that way. (We'd also need the Imagonem spell/Ritual!...)
That would be enough for Rhianon and one more, and two more magi could split the fifth temporarily as their sanctums (interior floors are easily split with wooden walls, or whatever) until the other labs are built.
If every mage had their (reasonable) wishlist, what sort of labs would they want? (Not enough room for 1 private tower each, I'm guessing.) Half a tower, a town house (similar to Kallias'), a bunker like Glendower's, something else? Would 2 towers, maybe with a 1 story "mini-keep" between them, like an "H", fit everyone's needs? (2 in each tower, 1 more in the connecting structure?)
Daggin had indeed originally envisioned something more like his own tower, but well appointed as Kallias' house. Meh, he can add on over Glendower's labs, maybe, with time.
Well I've only seen a small part of Torstens lab, the single room was pretty small, I'm hoping the lab has more space in it somewhere.
Torsten's lab is actually HUGE, the building occupies the entire 50 x 50 area. Most of it (30 x 50) is the workshop/lab. It is not just a smithy, but a foundry as well; Ore can come in , finished goods come out. Foundrywork takes a lot of space, even in the middle ages.
Steve
If a pace is equal to a yard/meter, that's almost 1500 sq ft, or 3 times the minimum size for a lab right there.
hmm, just done the calculations and 12 paces is about 30ft, therefore that one room is 900sq ft. However that room is set up as a forge, as long as there is an actual lab in the building, I'm happy.
30 * 50 = 75 * 125 = 9375 sq ft. Hmm, wonder how much of that I can use.
If the foundry is in my lab (or in my building) does this mean that the mundanes enter to do stuff? Or is this Torsten's Foundry, and there is another one elsewhere?
The only ones allowed into Torsten's lab were Torsten, and his forge companions. His workshop is his lab. Yes, he had some forge companions. Where did they go...? Well, you'll have to find out.
There is a smelting operation at the mine head, assisted with magic.
Rhiannon's CrCo lab total is decent, but not good - she clears the minimum requirement for a Longevity potion, and that's it. It would be good for a few years, though.
There are a number of options available:
- Have Diedre make one, in lieu of some other service she's offered to perform.
- Make one on my own.
- Contract one through the Venditores, if the expenditure of vis can be approved
- Leave off until a lab can be built and stocked.
(There is an option 5 - do what Mab did - but that is so highly unlikely to happen, it isn't...)
Steve
Yeah, if Daggin ends up with Glendower's bunker I half expect to look around one day to find the old Bonisagus, back from Twilight and pissed as hell, casting spells at the stranger in his sanctum.
What does the Code say about Twilight and "abandoned" sanctums? Or is Mab's eyewitness account adequate evidence of the death of Glendower in the eyes of the peripheral Code?
Well, it's been nearly 3 seasons since Glendower went >Pouf!<, so if he doesn't show up at the Summer Solstice, he's not coming back for a while (next interval is seven years, ArsM5ed, pg 88 ), if ever. Mab's Eyewitness account was good enough for House Bonisagus, who have listed him as "Missing, Presumed Final Twilight".
Steve
Cool.
What is Rhiannon's "optimal" lab set up- would half-a-tower work for her, or does she just want 500 sq' feet to call her own, or would she prefer a house, or a tree, or cave, or what?
If we can get a better feel for what our non-lab-enabled sodales would want, we make a more educated decision on what options we should pursue to achieve the best results.
afaik, Daggin, Fabrica and Stephan have labs (and the Healer's lab is in question).
That leaves, in reverse alphabetical order:o Siereadan
o Rhiannon
o Mathius (or did he get the armourer's lab? If so, then Fabrica)
o CorvusWhat are those Characters' preferred lab/sanctum arrangements, that are reasonably within our immediate reach to provide?
I could see Corvus in a tower with no entrance except at the top. A winding wooden staircase spirals its way to the wooden platform that hangs over the edge of the tower. A number of beams jut out from the platform and each has a pulley and rope attached. The baskets at the end of the ropes are used to bring goods up and down the tower from smaller provisions to lab equipment.
Next to the platform there is a small wooden hut, little bigger than a sentry post but it contains a small hearth and a cot along with a small chair and table. A chest contains a blanket for warmth and a sheet of weathered canvas to help keep the worst of the elements out. This is for the sentry that will occasionally guard the tower.
The centre of the tower is usually open and appears to drop down the full length of the tower and beyond into the basement below ground. The lab space is arranged all around the tower, up and down, almost confusing to a mind not used to thinking in three dimensions. Here and there a bridge spans the tower and steps lead from one level to another.
With the sunlight streaming down the tower's shaft the place takes on a mystical air but when the bad weather comes the top of the tower can be sealed by raising two great wooden shutters. Each shutter takes one strong man to pull into place using the ropes tied off at the top of the tower.
So, in plain speaking, there's a simple tower with a number of floors and a central (largely) open shaft. The wooden stairs around the outside could be the work of a (trusted) carpenter as could all the other wooden building work. Fitting it out with the essential lab equipment may involve the use of magic to shift the larger pieces around once inside the sanctum but that's nothing too tricky.
Seireadan would want something.. interesting ^^
He has interests in Rego, Spells, Experimentation, Corpus, and Mentem.. but is quite adventurous really.. so he won't be likely to make many items, but will probably make some spells, and maybe do some research eventually.
But yeah, in general, he has a few interests, so it's harder to pin down a lab than for a verditius ^^ .. meh, as long as it captures his interest, he'll be happy with it.. maybe a treehouse! heh
Even with half a tower we could do something like that for Corvus- (mundane) towers are often just cylinders of stone, and the interior is wooden construction - with magic, we could put one stone divider for "floors" about half way, and let C have the upper half, and someone else the lower. (Altho' I'll admit it's a lot flashier if the entire height is hollow.)
Would that work for now? Better than a "regular" lab, at least.
As for treehouses, S'd have to talk to Mab, I'd think, or cover it himself.
(Unless we, as a Covenant, have both the acreage and desire to fill it with individual sanctums?)
Putting experimenters in their own buildings is always wise I find ^^
Unless you invest in the extra thickness on the walls/ceiling and floor...
Then again, you could get a modifier for living in a Risky laboratory (Who knows how the idiot upstairs may interfere in your experiments?)