That's what I'm leaning towards. The example I gave from Mysteries does that.
As it says in the core book, opening a complex item costs either the sum of all items, or the value of the most expensive item (your choice).
The difference between opening an item as a complex item paying for the most expensive, and opening the most expensive part alone is 2-fold. One, you get to use all the attunement posibilities of all the components, and two, any breakage results in the item being totally useless...
Thanks Ulf, succinct and to the point. 
It has always struck me that one of the first things a mage would want in any valuable, complex object, talisman or no, is some "self-healing/anti-damage" enchantment.
Increased durability, increased soak, a continuous self-mending spell, and so on.
Anyone else ever bother with such?
Problem with constant effects is that they tend to cause warping.. which might be bad, depending on your circumstances. Especially in large numbers.
That said, a level 60 effect that can heal all wounds, usable unlimited times a day, and maintains concentration on the spell is quite handy for those situations.. can even be attached to an InCo if you want to check for and then instantly heal any wounds. Though you'd need a ritual to heal them all eventually of course ^^
Warping: Certain spells can be made another way. E.g. a detect magic spell which plays music when detecting magic will not cause warping.
And a question:
Why is it better if you cast spells from magic items?
A warping tends not to bother a talisman (or any item) as much as people... Unless we're talking about warping wood - but that has little to do with constant magical effects;)
I can see it now. the tables, and chairs in our covanent are going to gain a flaw/virtue from living in the magical aura and decide to eat us 
You may have better penetration built into the item,
may be more subtle in the casting
you can enchant any effect into an item, you dont need to know it 1st
you may have too many wound penalties to successfully cast
I'm sure there are others.
B O T C H
But all of these are wrong.
The charactger ends up giving up their already established attunements and as a result they have less
They end up destroying their previously enchanted effects so they have fewer effects.
and because they do not have the bonus to enchantt an effect from already existing effects the new effects that they enchant will be done with a lower lab totla on a new talisman then they could have had on the old talisman so they will have lower penetrations
I don't believe that this has anything to do with getting a new talisman. You can always make a magic item that is not your talisman and you don't need todestroy any old items to create a new one. To relate your example to the subject of talismans our example magus would need to take the first PoF wand and chop it up with an axe. Why would he do that?
You need to destroy your old talisman before you can create a new one.
On the other hand I've never seen a talisman fill up in play. It can hold pawns of vis equal to the caster's technique + form combination. Even in my game that only lasted 24 years past apprenticeship none of my four magi had totals for this that were less than 40 they averaged around 47. Do you have characters putting more than 400 levels of effects into a single item? and if so: can you imagine them ever giving the item up?
Your example is again not consistant with the rules. There is nothing preventing the magus from continually putting more and better enchantments into their talisman anevery time they put a new encahntment into their talisman they get a new attunement. It is the magus who has the brand new talisman who would be the embaresment. it would be akin to a sixty year old executive showing off the 2,114 dollars and twelve cents that he has saved for retirement as his talisman has only one or two enchantments and attunements.
Also a PoF with a 10 penetration is exactly the sort of enchantment that may warrant a retcon because the player didn't understand the rules. the best reason to put a spell like that into an item rather than casting it yourself is so you can give the item to someone else. Something that you wouldn't do with a talisman.
If you wanted to take advantage of shape and material bonuses for penetration of an attack spell, you certainly wouldn't want to put it into your talisman, because you know that you your scores will go up and unless you intend on dumping your talisman the enchantment won't get better. Naturally you wanted to bring up a poor choice of enchantment to provide fodder for discussion about dumping your old talisman. But I think that your example enchantment is sufficently poor that it is unrealistic.
All of the previous suggestions are true, but imo added Penetration may be the most important, possibly second only to...
"Guaranteed" Casting.
In the Vatican on Easter Sunday, fatigued unto dropping, and want to cast a spell Silently with No Gestures? No prob!*
(* Assuming the big G doesn't mind, but that's a separate discussion.)
Also the item can maintain Concentration of the effect, which can be critical, and items can have environmental triggers, so that the effect can be "permanent" and/or automatic under certain conditions (see rules).
I'm not following this reasoning...As time passes you'd expect your magic theory to go up.... hence more attunements, because you can have more components.
Higher MT also means you can open more at the start. Unless I'm reading the rules for talismans wrong you still need to open it like any device, only after that and after it has been attuned do the limits get restricted for vis capacity. So your original may have inferior materials because you couldn't open the gems you wanted, instead your using a cut glass imitation.
I'm not sure why I'd want two versions of the same spell with different penetrations. Just make the high penetration version and save space/cost. Years later when you make your new talisman I'd hope that your lab totals have increased enough so that a few points aren't crittical for your work. The slight bonus for similar effect really isn't that important when you look at the big picture. At most it will make you take 1 extra season to instill the effect
When I originally looked at talismans, my character had NO chance of opening what he wants. If I had decided to create one anyway I guarantee I'd scrap it and start over. As is ~30 yrs out of gauntlet I'm just about where I need to be to open the largest component I envision (need to open it all or the largest part if I read complex items correctly)
I'm sure it's close, they tend to put the higher level effects (+increased penetration) into the items since there is a greater chance of not being able to cast them if they have wound/aura penalties.
You can have more components with a higher magic theory. However I'd imagine that a typical talisman that doesn't qualify as a starter talisman has 6-8 components and around 20 possible attunements. However it takes at least a season to change a possible attunement into a real attunement (when you are enchanting an effect). When you exchange your old talisman for a new one you are throwing away several real attunements for the possibility of later changeing more potential attunements into actual attunements. With the number of attunements available in a talisman with "only" seven components I don't see this as practical. There is no mechanical reason why the attunements of the new tralisman should be more powerful than those of the old talisman, only more numerous. (Initiation into the mystery of the greater talisman naturally changes the economics of this issue).
Magic theory 7 allows the opening of an item with 14 pawns worth of capacity. I IIRC a tiny priceless gem requires 15 pawns and it could not be used, but I've always thought that the incentive to use priceless gems is because of their capacity. The capacity rules for talismans over ride the normal capacity rules. The only advantage of priceless gems in a talisman is prettyness.
Well you probably wouldn't want to put two effects that are exactly the same appart from penetration into an item. Even considering penetration, anyone who can't come up ith a more entertaining enchantment than "just like the last one only with more penetration" probably isn't trying too hard. However, if you did want to increase penetration you'd be better off putting a second effect into your talisman than starting a new talisman, each effect that shares an art in the item translates as a bonus to penetration If you are really trying to push penetration to the bleeding edge then, it makes more sense to do it on an old talisman than a new one.
To reiterate my position I can see a magus dumping their talisman for three reasons
1 They screwed it up with poor choices (which I would allow a player to retcon rather than hurting them in character).
2 They just made a "starter talisman" not too far out of apprenticeship
3 They are dumping their old talisman to initiate into a new mystery.
Then to expand on why I believe this, here's how I'm thinking:
Any magus who has a talisman so slight that they are tempted to junk it has plenty of capacity left in their talisman and doesn't need to throw it away. (If they don't have a good number of relevant possible attunements they fit into catagory 1 above).
Any magus who has a talisman so full that they are running low on capacity has years and years of work into it and their talisman is too valuable to for them to give up.
Ok lets start with the simple stuff:
Two identical powers with higher penetration:
-Didn't see where this came into the discussion. Erik you are correct that this does not make sense. The only way I see this happening is if one of the parameters for the effect change...range, target etc.
Working backward through the listings...
More components and Attunements:
Erik...
Well, why not? Perhaps a character has not taken the time to get all twenty attunements that you mention as possible. In the situation I mentioned above, my Talisman only has about ten (IIRC). The talisman powers are maxed out at nineteen pawns of space. I can do -much better than that now. I can make an item that could double the possible attunements now. The number of powers I can place in it has gone through the roof....(more about that below).
I don't see this. Not at all.
I create an item. We will call it the 'Incredible Bauble of Confusing People". I place four priceless gems into the Bauble. The Bauble has a base of gold with silver inlay. I place two Priceless gems as highlighters inside the others. This brings the whole thing up to a total of one hundred twentysix spaces (6 for silver, 10 for gold, 30 for the precious, 80 for the priceless) I don't see this as pointless (including the gems).
I now open the entire item (Yep, I can). I now have a pretty niffty bauble.
-At this point I spend a season attuneing it as my Talisman. I attune one of the shape or material possibilities.
---{I suppose you could argue at this point the quote from the book: "The maximum number of pawns of Vim Vis that may be used to prepare a Talisman is equal to the sum of the Magus's highest Technique and highest Form." I would counter this by quoting, "A magus my attune an item with instilled effects as his Talisman as long as he instilled all the effects personally." Also, "The capacity of a Talisman is independant of its shape and material, and instead depends on the power of the magus to whom it is attuned."
Of course all this is a contradiction of sorts. I have made and item using the rules, but it EXCEEDS the normal rules for a talisman. OPINION: This rule was intended to help a magus (player) create a magical device that exceeds what they can normally do. Since what I can do exceeds this, I believe it falls back on the original statement about using ANY invested device. [shrug]}
This might be true is some cases. Consider though: The above Bauble has (107) more spaces in it. I am only giving up a few attunements for a short while, for a long term gain. As I place more powers in it, I will attune more of the effects. I think the eight to ten seasons I spend 'catching up' well worth the possibility of having more powers and attunements.
--As I said..for a short time you give them up for the greater advantage.
--Yep, for a brief time I would have less effects to pull from (unless I enchanted the effects before attuning it as my talisman, then you are incorrect)
Lower lab total: Erik, I am completely confused at this? My character is something like FORTY years older than when he made his last Talisman. Do you think his lab total has gone up? 
The plus (maybe say) 7 for an existing effect is,...minor. As I enchant effects into the item I would certainly get more pluses to work with. I see your point here as not correct. ANY item you create is not going to have any previous enchantments to stack. This of course would be an ADVANTAGE not mentioned before: (thank you...good point there)
An item that has MORE effects has more bonuses to further effects from similar effects enchanted. As my item with more than 100 more effect levels is likely to have similar enchantments, that would actually raise the lab totals. If you add in the additional abilities I (or another magus) have aquired, then this changes a BUNCH.
So that he could then add BoAF to it. Then maybe he wants to add Ward against heat and flame. Maybe he wants to add Wiz icey grip as well. Since he can fit them, it might be a good idea. Remember this item is his TALISMAN. He can only have one, and his whimpy little PoF is a bit comical when as an Arch Magus he uses it on an enemy (as I pointed out in the previous post). With his higher lab total, he can have better penetration, and certainly more respect from anyone he hits with it.
Yeah, thats been part of the discussion all along.
Mine has 19 spaces. I filled it up about twenty five years ago.
We will...
How so...?
Um...are you saying that a magus can 'write over' an existing effect??? 
Otherwise there is a VERY good reason to make a new one in this case...
Pof with a Penetration of 10 WAS THE BEST THE MAGA COULD DO AT THE TIME. He only has three attunements due to his low MT score at the time of creation (that number is a fabrication to fill the space...it could be 6 or 9). He/she now decides that a PoF with a Pen of 40 would be more useful. Since he could now create one with (say) double the number of attunements, this seems to be a plus.
I think I already andswered the part about the player not understanding the rules...
Of course they go up. Consider though if you are going to lose your appretice(s). Your lab total would go DOWN.
As for being unrealistic...I don't believe so. I may be slanting the choice towards poor, but a poor enchantment is in the eye of owner. I have said before (look back) that this is a more a or less a personal decision. I outlined my point of view (why I would do this) and you more or less said I was incorrect. You were maintaining that there is no point and that there wouldn't be any time for someone to do this. I answered that. You (and others to a lesser extent) were asking for WHY a person would do this. I provided a viable example. My example was simplified for discussion, but I think most people here understand this. The example could easily have included two more effects...reasonable for a starting magus, who does not have a high MT.
If you take the position that you shouldn't make a Talisman because your scores are going to go up, nobody would EVER make an item.
Regards,
Urien
From what I can see from both Erik's and Urien's posts, they both have valid points, and in some cases most magi will not need to re-create a talisman. However, this rule does NOT apply to verditius magi!
Take these two examples:
I am a Flambeau magus 10 years out of apprenticeship, I have a MT of 7 and my highest arts are CR (11) and Ig (16)
I can create a talisman using 7 components. The highest component that it can use contains 2 * 7MT =14 pawns.
I create a staff with a number of components in it, the most expensive part is a semi-precious gem (12 pawns). Due to the components the staff has a possible 14 attunements.
After I have opened the staff I attune it as my talisman. Instead of the original 12 pawns, I can now put in extra to make up my best Fo and Tech (11 + 16). I spend a season and open another 15 pawns of effects.
I spend time over the next 10 years filling the 27 pawns with different effects, and attuning it to different properties. My staff is starting to get full.
I then open more space in the staff because my arts have improved (now 16 + 20). I now put another 9 pawns of vim into it.
My staff now has 36 pawns in it, of which 26 have been used. Every 10-15 years I can add more space, until I max my arts - which on a normal magus means that my talisman will have between 60 and 80 pawns in it.
Now lets take the masters of magic items:
I am a Verditius magus 10 years out of apprenticeship, I have a MT of 7 and my highest arts are CR (11) and Ig (16), I know the Elder Runes mystery and I have a philosophae of 6, craft of 5.
I can create a talisman using 7 components. The highest component that it can use contains (7MT * 6Phil) + 5 Craft = 47 pawns. I can open all of the components in the staff for a cost of 45.
I create a staff with a number of components in it, the most expensive part is a semi-precious gem (12 pawns). Due to the components the staff has a possible 14 attunements.
After I have opened the staff I attune it as my talisman. The original 45 pawns is higher than my best Fo and Tech (11 + 16) so I cannot add any extra space.
I spend time over the next 10 years filling the 45 pawns with different effects, and attuning it to different properties. My staff is starting to get full.
My arts have improved, but they have not improved to higher than a sum of 45. If I want my talisman to have more space, I need to do something else.
I now have a Magic Theory of 12, and a philosophae of 8, my craft is now 8. I still know the Elder Runes.
If I create a new Talisman it will have a maximum capacity of (12 * 8 ) + 8 = 104 pawns.
Because I know the Reforging mystery I can recover most of the vis from my current talisman. I decide that I can live with my current one for now, but I will start to gather the vis to use in a few years for my new talisman.
Most magi (not Verditius) will be happy with a talisman of 14 or so attunements, and every 10 years or so they can add more space to their talisman.
Even if they no-longer like some of the effects due to weak penetration, they can add a better one in with a different trigger, or even a linked trigger so they both activate at once.
They may wish to create a new talisman because their old one is filled with junk or because it has few attunements - but this decision is a lot harder for non-Verditius to make.
A verditius mage can re-create their talisman over and over, especially if they know the correct mysteries.
Am i wrong or, beside some exceptions, a mage is almost never in a situation to prefer a instilled item over a talisman(regarding the capacity of the items and the close connection to it). I mean, unless you have an insane score in MT or some Veriditus secrets... The capacity of any object attuned as a talisman become Higest technique + higest form is a great benefit to most mage isn't it(even if the object is a tiny small wood ring)?
On top of that, is yout MT is sky high and you can open super-object with some 12 components and some 95 raw vis capacity your a certainly not the average magus. What is the goal in this beside selling those object in the Order or building your reputation on that (wich can be fair goals).
I would say that 95% of the time, your Highest technique and form is higher than your MT capacity to open object or part of them in the lab. If not, then your specialist mage certainly should'nt go very often on the battle field or in adventure himself. Most of these characters have a chance of behing NPCs since of the narrow speciality or a character in a specialist saga(that can be interesting to play).
What i suggest that type of mage to do (especially the veriditus who don't bother showing a part of their secret technique and risking their reputation) is taking another mage as a lab assistant to open a powerfull object together and then permit the assisting mage to attune the object as is talisman.
But i really don't see the point of arguing against another post in reference to the main rules while using example that apply to a rahter fraction of magi created as specialist in a narrow sense...
Or maybe i got all wrong?
-Bellysarius
Which was my point. MY situation is different than what Erik was laying out, but he was saying that he didn't see it. [shrug]
Brutus...You are correct, but in your example, you use the fact that your guy have Elder runes in BOTH instances. How much different is it if you didn't have ER the first time?
If you look at it, it is REALLY hard to do this. This is especially true if you started with a high Philosophiae.
I know this is the standard...but can someone show me WHERE it says that you can REOPEN your Talisman? I see the part where it says you maximum, and where it says you can open it a little at a time, but I don't see this rule. In my situation it would not matter...but...
When you do X, it's limited by Y. If it takes you additional time and your scores go up, it doesn't usually allow you to go back and 'do it again'. Granted it is your Talisman.
If the Verditius did not know the Elder Runes for the first talisman they would have to open it as the Flambeau did, and would be limited to their highest Tech + Form + philosphae +craft. They would almost certainly want to replace it when they learned the Elder Rune mystery.
If they never learn that mystery, then they would be more inclined to keep their talisman, as they can still increase it's powers.
However, being a minor mystery, almost all Verditius would want to learn it.
I am not "Reforging" the talisman, so my philosophae score does not come into it. It says that the extra space can be opened a little at a time, and as the maximum it can hold depends on your arts which increase...
The Talisman is not being reopened, it is just that as you become more powerful you are able to cram more vis into it. It takes you a season to put more vim into it, so you would do a lot at once, rather than every few years.
Yay, I got praised 
Talismans don't max out in space using normal capacity rules. A character can continue to invest more vis into the item up to a total of the characters highest tech + form combination. Your character's talisman almost certainly isn't maxed out at 19 pawns
Going back through this thread would resolve this apparent contradiction for you. The bit of the rules that is missing in your discussion is "the capacity of a talisman can be opened a bit at a time." from the first paragraph of the middle column of page 98.
A character takes an already opened object (that may or may not have enchantments in it) and attunes it as their talisman. After it is attuned the magus can spend seasons on putting more vis into the item.
But the bauble in your example above is nowhere near its capacity.
The example of your character may qualify for a fourth good reason to give up a talisman, that reason being "The character has initiated the mystery of verditious elder runes and wants to go hog wild with a brand new talisman".
But I'm not so certain that it is a good choice. IF you really have a talisman that is close to being full and has lots of attunemets opened on it is it really going to be more wise to destroy the old talisman and create a new one rather than just creating a monster magic item that doesn't happen to be the character's talisman. While your character's seasonal vis use has skyrocketed magic theory probably hasn't gone up more than three points. So you could get three additional objects incorporated into the item. Three more shapes and three more materials for attunements can add up to quite a few bonuses.
But when is the payoff going to come?
Initially the character with the new invested device rather than the new talisman has more attunements and more enchantments.
At some point after ten or fifteen seasons of work on the item the magus who made the new talisman will have as many attunements but will still have fewer enchantments.
Beyond this the, new talisman magus will have more attunements but still have fewer enchantments. The number of attunements that the new talisman magus can get will eventually cap out. So the question is are the additional attunements worth more than the enchantments?
There is a problem with the above analysis in that it assumes tha the character will continue to put effects into the talisman or the "monster item". Yet the whole scenario is based on the premise that the character has verditious elder runes and can make a monster item. This ignores the fact that the other big deal about verditious elder runes is their ability to give the magus monstrously large bonuses on a specific tech + form combination. I frankly don't think that a character with the elder runes virtue is going to want to spend so much of his time perfecting one item but instead, they will create several items each focusing on a particular tech + for combination in order to get a disgustingly large lab total.
No, this is the capacity issue as well.