From what was discussed earlier, although you can open the staff one part at a time, you only get the Material bonus (attunements) for the bits you are opening. i.e. even if you open the other parts, you only get the bonus for Ruby and it's in the shape of a Staff.
As you are not opening the staff, you get no bonus for what the staff is made out of, or any other bits in the staff. You just get the shape staff.
Though I'm still a little unclear on the area myself.
BTW is the second effect Conc as well? The first one is, but the second isn't.
Still reading throu7gh all the pages in this interesting discussion (talismans always seemed a little bit complicated to me) but I wanted to chime in to put a question here.
DO your mages have only one talisman along their life? IMS the magi have tended to have up to 5 different talismans, destroying the former, less powerful incantation of their talisman to create a new one. In general, IMS you can tell how powerful is a mage by the talisman he is carrying. overly copmplicated and powerful talismans tend to belong to very powerful magi, while starting magi have a simple talisman, like a wand or talisman with a crystal on top and not much else. They increase range, protection (for the item) and bonus to spellcasting, but are not considered to be overly powerful magic items for a young magus, only useful tools.
Talismans tend to be opened for shape and form bonuses to spellcasting, but not enchanted until you set up with your "definitive talisman"; magi enchant magic items that they will NOT destroy. One they have set up with their final talisman they create those items of wonder that will endure in reality and legend through the centuries to come, but that tends to be late in their lives.
My experience has been that magi in my games have only one talisman. They tend not to make the talisman unti they have a MT of at least 6 (typically 7).
Including seven different materials with 4-7 shapes and an average of just short of two bonuses per shape and material gives them about twenty different bonuses that they can open. Who is going to ever get around to opening that many?
On the other hand I can easily see someone fresh out of apprenticeship opening a simple wand with four components (cause you never know) then putting in a single effect and open "affect a target at distance +4" then never enchanting it again.
This is no longer the case for fifth edition. Now you open a shape/material bonus as a byproduct of instilling an effect into the talisman with an maximum of 1 opened bonus per season
Erik I agree. You really do want your MT to be reasonable before you make your Talisman...
Twenty different attunements...
Yeah I can see my new Talisman having that many... The critical part is how many Effects you have in it. Each time you enchant you can attune...so if you have twenty powers, it should not be too hard...[shrug].
This one mentioned will be my second...
My guess would be that most mages would create a new one every thirty years or so...
The 5th ed rules allowing one to improve on an older talisman push things toward less, rather than more, but a lot depends on the abundance (or lack) of vis in the saga, and in general the time a magus has, and how much of a lab rat they are.
In short, it all depends. But I'd say fewer rather than more, yeah.
My estimate is based more on my thoughts of advancement...Thirty years should be enough advancement to raise the Maga's interest in doing so...the Vis should be available in most sagas...Figure five years of gathering Vis...a few trades and you have the Vim. The rest can come as you need it...Tends to create stories...
but what does a magus have to gain from scrapping his talisman and starting over?
If he has 20 possible attunements I don't think that thirty years would be long enough to see half of them.
I can imagine the sacrifice of a talisman in order to gain mystery initiation,
A quickie 1 attunement just out of apprenticeship talisman I can see being thrown aside.
A talisman made by a player who didn't realize the subtilties of the rules I'd let retcon their talisman choices.
Aside from those three instances I can't see it happening. A talisman needs a season to open, and at least a season to enchant in order to make it a talisman, possibly several season enchanting and additional seasons opening up more room in it for further enchanting. Would your character really give up two years or more years of work just so they can spend an addiional two years to catch back up to where they were? I've not played in a game where characters ever had two years to spare.
I don't want to hijack the tread but i have a question about the talisman creation that i'm not shure about.
Does the Talisman grow in power with you?
If, when you make the proper item your talisman, your highest form+technique are at 20 (as my youg magus player) does that mean that the talisman maintain 20 as a maximum capacity in vis(that he was attuned that way, he wont change or grow)?
Or does that mean that over time when your highest tech+form become 25 or 30 does the talisman also grow in power (because he's a part of you)?
The way i get it the principal reason to destroy an old talisman is just because your MT score is higher and you want to add some part/material to it... or is it also because your tech+form score is higher and your old talisman is now less significant to you?
[quote="Bellysarius"Or does that mean that over time when your highest tech+form become 25 or 30 does the talisman also grow in power (because he's a part of you)?[/quote]
Correct. You can open more spaces as your arts increase.
Precisely. Another option would be to seek the Great Talisman mystery.
Correct, your talisman is actually the ruby, which gains some bonus' for being part of a staff.
Your talisman would only be the staff if you had opened all of the components at the same time. Amber/Ruby/wood etc.
The SG could probably rule that as the staff and the ruby are joined, touching the staff is the same as touching the ruby. (otherwise you would have to touch the ruby itself )
More Attunements...
More effects...
Increasing the penetration of effects (Vs the old item)
New abilities that can be added from Mystery cults/Mysteries etc.
Well then, Perhaps I see a possible benefit that you don't. Thats a personal decision.
Absolutely.
True. I look at my previous Talisman in the same way...something temporary until I CAN make the one that I really want. Just because it has more than one attunement...
Always true.
Well, would you expect a character to make additional items as he/she grows more powerful? Say after gauntlet, a Magus makes a wand with 'Pillum of Fire'. The penetration on this item is the best he can do: say 10.
This item is pretty good. It will help him against 'mortals', and might help his against some of his contemporaries (Parma 1, low form bonus).
Forty years later he decides that he should make a device that has the same effect, but with more Penetration. He now creates an item with the same effect, but with a Penetration of (say) 40. Is this not worth it? Certainly, after all these years, it might be expected that any one who would 'mess' with such a powerful magus, would be expected to be more powerful..(read Higher Might/Parma etc). Should the magus in question expect to be able to have a use for his Penetration 10 PoF, when his opponent is an Arch magus? I would imaging that his opponent has a higher Form resistance than that...
So having outlined that, I would have to say that it WOULD be useful. So he makes an item that does this. He then adds a whole bunch of powers to it (why not, he can). At this point he has an item that has powers far greater in power than his current Talisman...He destroys his talisman. He then attunes the item as his Talisman...Of course if he decides to make the item as his NEW talisman, he has the opportunity to Attune the various abilities as he enchants it...saving time. Two years to spare...
I just spent a year enchanting an item for a Customer...Why should I not spend at least that much time making something for myself? Of course every character will have to make this decision for themselves...
If they are so busy that they don't have time for this..What are they doing? Whats the point of spending fifty or sixty years studying if you can't do something with it? For A Verditius, THIS is what they strive for. If nothing else, it is a PRIDE issue...[I made a better Talisman than YOU... ]. A Talisman is supposed to be the most powerful item a Magus will make..Imagine the embarrassment when the Archmage shows his peers his PoF wand with a Penetration of 10, and three attunements....Kind of like bragging about your Kindergarten spelling test..and you teach advanced [insert Language of choice here] at a major University...
In our current saga, we have more things to do than time. I know this character WILL make the time to do so...The SG's may hinder this, and it may take ten years to do, but in the end I will have it. I will not be embarrassed at the 'Contest'. Of course this is character dependant...
Other characters and SG's may not see the use in this, but I certainly do.
My character has the weak penetration flaw (Weak Magic, maybe?), and so his talisman is there largely to add a boost to that. Trap of Entwining Vines at +25 penetration? That should do.
I knew there was an expanded ruling on Talismans in a book other than the main. In the 5E Mysteries book on page 89. They give an example of someone inventing a Talisman, very similar to my example. The example Magus opens the enchantment on one of the 4 gems on her iron shod staff, which costs 12 pawns. From there it says she has the ability to get up to 11 Material bonuses and 10 shape bonuses that she can later Attune.
From there it goes on to talk about a Mystery of making greater Talisman, but the example given is to rehash the standard Talisman rules.
That opening the most expensive component to an item and then attuning the item to become your talisman gives you access to all of the components on the talisman, not just the one you opened. Right?
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]. A Talisman is supposed to be the most powerful item a Magus will make..Imagine the embarrassment when the Archmage shows his peers his PoF wand with a Penetration of 10, and three attunements....Kind of like bragging about your Kindergarten spelling test..and you teach advanced [insert Language of choice here] at a major University...
AHA! Found it!