The Best and Worst Virtues

[Ovarwa]

@callen

It seems we have a good group of Virtues that are pretty similar in strength that represent the upper tier of the Minor Virtues:

Affinity, Apt Student, Baccalaureate, Book Learner, Faerie Blood (God), Faerie Sympathy, Gild Training, Independent Study, Minor Magical Focus, Puissant, and Skilled Parens

Which one is better varies a bit based on short-term versus long-term, starting as apprentices or starting after gauntlet, etc. Improved Characteristics and Great Characteristic could probably be put in there as well, looking at opinions here. Personally, I would also include Cautious Sorcerer, Faerie Blood (Dwarf), and Imbued with the (Spirit of Form).

Edit: Remove this paragraph... I like the virtue that helps practice+adventure, not the one that helps study from vis.
Hmm. I don't think Independent Study is all that worthy. Study from vis is expensive and dangerous, a rarity in most sagas. Study from books is a lot more common, whether the books in a given saga are good or bad.

I think Faerie Blood in general almost belongs. All sorts of possible goodies. But although I consider SFB to be awesome, I think that except for a few cherry picked concepts, FB is not in the top tier of awesomeness. (Book Learner, for example, is generally good. Faerie Blood (Dwarf) is great for Verditius magi.) Faerie Blood (God or equivalent) probably belongs, because almost anyone can benefit from a good Sympathy, yet the best virtue that grants a sympathy is probably the free background: Yes, it grants a negative sympathy that starts off equal to the positive, but if your Warping Score starts at 0, both the positive and negative aspects being at 0, allowing both to become positive. A low Warping score starts one off negative, but it can quickly be made positive.

I'm on the fence regarding Cautious Sorcerer: It is useless when only one botch die is rolled and not noticeable when 20 are rolled. There is a murky middle ground when it is quite useful. OTOH, Cautious with Ability is awesome for any character who often uses a single Ability in stressful situations, because it removes the last botch die. Ceremonial Magic (yes, not everyone agrees with me on this), a supernatural Ability, Sihr, Solomonic X, Concentration, Finesse, Enigmatic Wisdom.... most characters use some ability very often, but not all, so I wouldn't rank this in the top tier either. CS combines well with FM, though. A good virtue, but not a no-brainer. Mythic Characteristic is better, when taking an application that applies to casting (and why not? It is a use of Sta), combining much better with a familiar.

Deft Form is also in the "a no brainer only for certain concepts" category. Deft Form(Me or Im) is extraordinarily good... for characters who cast lots of that kind of thing.

So, Puissant, Affinity, Minor Focus, virtues that grant a positive Sympathy, Book Learner, Apt Student, Independent Study, Baccaluareate, Skilled Parens, Gild Training: Great for pretty much everyone who can take them, and all magi can (well, Tremere cannot take Minor Focus because they are already given one .) Some concepts don't have room for any of them, let alone all, of course.

But if we also include virtues that are just as good situationally, all sorts of things belong. Everything that you listed, certainly. But also Deft Form, Silent/Subtle Magic, Inoffensive to X, Good Reputation, Magical Foci, Charm Magic, Special Circumstances (while performing for a "bard," while in Heartbeast for a Bjornaer...), Cyclic Magic(seasonal): (read 2 seasons, adventure+lab work 2 seasons ftw), Life Boost...

[Ovarwa]

@John Prins

@callen

1 spell level =/= 1 experience point.

Generally, I agree, though starting magi often take a lot of low level spells of differing Te/Fo, so 30 spell levels could well represent 6 level 5 spells, or 1 1/2 years of lab activity (or 2 x 10 and 2 x 5, which is one year's worth). It's not difficult to squeeze equivalent value out of it.

True. #xps/season remains relatively constant until all the good books run out, but #spell levels/season increases with Hermetic age.

[Tugdual]

@John Prins

@callen

1 spell level =/= 1 experience point.

Generally, I agree, though starting magi often take a lot of low level spells of differing Te/Fo, so 30 spell levels could well represent 6 level 5 spells, or 1 1/2 years of lab activity (or 2 x 10 and 2 x 5, which is one year's worth). It's not difficult to squeeze equivalent value out of it.

That's a little abusive. You are setting up 6 different TeFo to have 6 seasons needing a Lab Total of 10. Surely you can shuffle them back into apprenticeship, pull out 3 level 10 spells out of it and match callen's worst case example.

[Jonathan.Link]

@John Prins

@callen

1 spell level =/= 1 experience point.

Generally, I agree, though starting magi often take a lot of low level spells of differing Te/Fo, so 30 spell levels could well represent 6 level 5 spells, or 1 1/2 years of lab activity (or 2 x 10 and 2 x 5, which is one year's worth). It's not difficult to squeeze equivalent value out of it.

Generally I specialize my starting magi, so I can do really cool stuff right away and differentiate myself from the other magi. In sagas where all the magi are likely to adventure together this gives my magus a chance to stand out. So, I typically have 80 levels in my preferred Arts, and then 20 levels in my favored Form, and then the last 20 are utility spells that I can comfortably cast. Level 5 spells are almost not worth it at the apprentice/newly gauntled level, because these can either be spontaneously cast or ceremonially cast.

[Ovarwa]

@Jonathan.Link

@John Prins

@callen

1 spell level =/= 1 experience point.

Generally, I agree, though starting magi often take a lot of low level spells of differing Te/Fo, so 30 spell levels could well represent 6 level 5 spells, or 1 1/2 years of lab activity (or 2 x 10 and 2 x 5, which is one year's worth). It's not difficult to squeeze equivalent value out of it.

Generally I specialize my starting magi, so I can do really cool stuff right away and differentiate myself from the other magi. In sagas where all the magi are likely to adventure together this gives my magus a chance to stand out. So, I typically have 80 levels in my preferred Arts, and then 20 levels in my favored Form, and then the last 20 are utility spells that I can comfortably cast. Level 5 spells are almost not worth it at the apprentice/newly gauntled level, because these can either be spontaneously cast or ceremonially cast.

Unless, of course, it's something worth fast+multi casting with high penetration...

[Jonathan.Link]

@Ovarwa

Unless, of course, it's something worth fast+multi casting with high penetration...

And fast casting takes 10 off your penetration right off the bat...so...

[Ovarwa]

Sure. But sometimes you want to be first, and penetration is easier with a small spell.

[Jonathan.Link]

@Ovarwa

Sure. But sometimes you want to be first, and penetration is easier with a small spell.

If you want to be first, have a high quickness, pick fast caster, and spend confidence on your initiative to help ensure you're first.

I've said it before, and wasn't going to bring it up, but you did. Fast casting, IMO, is a defensive action, and not an offensive one. It's a reaction to something. You cannot be, by definition, first, when you are reacting to something. 4th Edition at least made it explicit that fast casting was for defense.

[Ovarwa]

@Jonathan.Link

@Ovarwa

Sure. But sometimes you want to be first, and penetration is easier with a small spell.

If you want to be first, have a high quickness, pick fast caster, and spend confidence on your initiative to help ensure you're first.

I've said it before, and wasn't going to bring it up, but you did. Fast casting, IMO, is a defensive action, and not an offensive one. It's a reaction to something. You cannot be, by definition, first, when you are reacting to something. 4th Edition at least made it explicit that fast casting was for defense.

I so agree that it should be that way, even on this very thread. But it's not.

I'm happy to say it differently though: A low level spell can be useful to maximize Penetration, especially if it is Mastered.

[John_Prins]

@Tugdual

That's a little abusive. You are setting up 6 different TeFo to have 6 seasons needing a Lab Total of 10. Surely you can shuffle them back into apprenticeship, pull out 3 level 10 spells out of it and match callen's worst case example.

From the last magus I built, who had Skilled Parens, his starting spells list at gauntlet:

Ward Against Rain ReAu10

Bind Wound CrCo10
Purification of the Festering Wound CrCo20
Eyes of the Cat MuCo(An)5

Conjure the Sturdy Vine CrHe5
Trap of the Entwining Vines CrHe15
Intuition of the Forest InHe10
Curse of the Rotted Wood PeHe5
Ward Against Wood ReHe25

Palm of Flame CrIg5
Pilum of Fire CrIg20

Wizard's Sidestep ReIm10

Scales of the Magical Weight InVi5
Sense the Nature of Vis InVi5

That's 6 level 5 spells, only 2 of which share Te/Fo. Also, 4 level 10 spells, none of which share Te/Fo with level 5 spells. I grant that some of these could have been sponted, but not without fatigue/crap penetration. Of the lot, only Ward Against Rain might be considered worthless, but this was a Mercere and not being rained on is nice while traveling. Regardless, Skilled Parens got me a lot of little spells I wanted and saved me from learning them the slow way.

[callen]

@John Prins

@callen

1 spell level =/= 1 experience point.

Generally, I agree, though starting magi often take a lot of low level spells of differing Te/Fo, so 30 spell levels could well represent 6 level 5 spells, or 1 1/2 years of lab activity (or 2 x 10 and 2 x 5, which is one year's worth). It's not difficult to squeeze equivalent value out of it.

6 different TeFo combinations is not 1.5 years of lab activity just because they require 1.5 years to acquire. That is only the case if the lab total in every case is 10 and no Lab Texts. A lab total of 10 is approximately the default assumption for Te+Fo=0, meaning Int 3 + MT (spells) 4 + Aura 3 = 10. If your lab totals are higher or you have Lab Texts, that could very easily be twice as many level-5 spells, meaning only half of the 1.5 years (3 seasons) are the value of these spells. And that's if you can truly say those spells are the true savings as opposed to other spells...

@John Prins

That's 6 level 5 spells, only 2 of which share Te/Fo. Also, 4 level 10 spells, none of which share Te/Fo with level 5 spells.

The earlier point is still valid. You say this gives 6 such spells, or fewer with some level 10s. But a real accounting of value could be that the virtue gave you only Pilum of Fire and Wizard's Sidestep. If you could get Text for each of them (they are common, after all), that could be less than 2 seasons. Or, depending on your scores (looks like Cr and Re are good), that could be three level 10s, each of which could be invented in a single season or quite nearly so at gauntlet. So this still looks like the worst-case scenario of 3 seasons, averaging below that.

[John_Prins]

@callen

The earlier point is still valid. You say this gives 6 such spells, or fewer with some level 10s. But a real accounting of value could be that the virtue gave you only Pilum of Fire and Wizard's Sidestep. If you could get Text for each of them (they are common, after all), that could be less than 2 seasons.

And for young magi, 2 seasons can be 30xp studying the Roots (which are also common). So even if the magi takes 2 x 15, they can fairly easily squeeze 30xp out of the time saved not having to learn these spells (though technically it's 26xp because you should account for exposure XP as well). Still makes Skilled Parens look better than 72xp.

[callen]

@John Prins

@callen

The earlier point is still valid. You say this gives 6 such spells, or fewer with some level 10s. But a real accounting of value could be that the virtue gave you only Pilum of Fire and Wizard's Sidestep. If you could get Text for each of them (they are common, after all), that could be less than 2 seasons.

And for young magi, 2 seasons can be 30xp studying the Roots (which are also common). So even if the magi takes 2 x 15, they can fairly easily squeeze 30xp out of the time saved not having to learn these spells

Sure. But why compare apples and oranges? I've already said this. It's even possible for it to take one season with a really good teacher. At the same time, we could point out that a specialist could invent a level-30 spell in a single season right out of gauntlet so those 30 spell levels are only worth a season. But that's also not examining things well. This is why I was working with estimates of averages and ones taken over a few years, not just straight out of gauntlet.

@John Prins

(though technically it's 26xp because you should account for exposure XP as well). Still makes Skilled Parens look better than 72xp.

Huh? House rules? Those certainly aren't book rules.

[Ramidel]

@Tugdual

They are generally bad. If your concept is an hybrid hermetic/suleiman, then go for it. But Solomonic Virtues are Major, meaning your parens needs a Lab Total of 60 per art! Getting an InVi of 120 is barely possible, meaning you'd have to go the other way and find a sahir willing to help the Order with a Solomonic Travels score around 16 (136 xp, 90 with Affinity). Moreover, I don't think Magical Defenses stack with Parma or Form bonuses (noble's parma on that).

Late response: Solomonic "Magical Defenses" are not defenses, they're very powerful static buffs.

On that note, now that I have HMRE: For a sahir (particularly Gifted), the most powerful virtue in the game is Improved Magical Defenses, due to the usefulness of the Solomonic Defenses. However, I suspect that this combination is not intended. (Integration fodder, mayhaps?)

[Tellus]

@Ramidel

Late response: Solomonic "Magical Defenses" are not defenses, they're very powerful static buffs.

On that note, now that I have HMRE: For a sahir (particularly Gifted), the most powerful virtue in the game is Improved Magical Defenses, due to the usefulness of the Solomonic Defenses. However, I suspect that this combination is not intended. (Integration fodder, mayhaps?)

Not sure about "most power virtue", but it's certainly useful, and does provide a potentially huge bonus to resist aging, as well as a host of other benefits.

[MarioJPC]

Yes, they are very usefull enhancements, but at same time... with the same rules from HMRE, they could have defenses more restrained, but higher since their "Arts" are Accelerated Abilities.

[Ramidel]

@Tellus

@Ramidel

Late response: Solomonic "Magical Defenses" are not defenses, they're very powerful static buffs.

On that note, now that I have HMRE: For a sahir (particularly Gifted), the most powerful virtue in the game is Improved Magical Defenses, due to the usefulness of the Solomonic Defenses. However, I suspect that this combination is not intended. (Integration fodder, mayhaps?)

Not sure about "most power virtue", but it's certainly useful, and does provide a potentially huge bonus to resist aging, as well as a host of other benefits.

Well, compare it to Strong Faerie Blood, which is a Major Virtue and got a fair bit of worship upthread. Alternately, compare it to Gentle Gift, which is also a Major Virtue, though the social consequences of the Gift aren't solely linked to your stat.

This is a Minor Virtue with a lot of punch for a Solomonic sahir (-3 to Aging Rolls is a Major Virtue almost by itself, and this will often get you far more than that). Of course, it's got a fair bit of punch for a Hermetic magus as well.

[Tugdual]

@Ramidel

This is a Minor Virtue with a lot of punch for a Solomonic sahir (-3 to Aging Rolls is a Major Virtue almost by itself, and this will often get you far more than that). Of course, it's got a fair bit of punch for a Hermetic magus as well.

I am not sure it should apply since that Virtue makes you "unusually difficult to affect with magic". HMRE "magic defenses" protect from magic, whereas tC&tC "magic defenses" are more alike Form bonuses. I find it hard to believe that Aging Roll is some sort of magic.

An equivalent Minor Hermetic Virtue Greater Form Defense would double all 10 Form bonuses. Peanuts compared to the +10 Puissant Parma offers, but some Art 15 offers the same +3 as Tough or Clear Thinker.

Not that RAW make any difference between both "magic defenses", so the loophole still looks kosher. YSMV.

[Tellus]

@Tugdual

Not that RAW make any difference between both "magic defenses", so the loophole still looks kosher. YSMV.

By RAW he's right - it's a very tasty virtue.
I could see SGs or troupes banning this use of it though.

[Ramidel]

@Tugdual

An equivalent Minor Hermetic Virtue Greater Form Defense would double all 10 Form bonuses. Peanuts compared to the +10 Puissant Parma offers, but some Art 15 offers the same +3 as Tough or Clear Thinker.

Hermetic forms don't give generic soak bonii. That said, most serious human opponents will be using steel weapons, so Terram comes close to Tough. You need Solomonic Alchemy if you want to be tough as mail against everything. (Adding to this, it helps you wear full mail without too much burden.)

@Tugdual

Not that RAW make any difference between both "magic defenses", so the loophole still looks kosher. YSMV.

Yeah. I myself would consider using that Virtue for Hermetic or Solomonic magic to be abusive if I were SGing. (If I'm ever playing in the saga of anyone reading this, I will categorically deny that I said that! )