The Best and Worst Virtues

Improved Solomonic defenses is indeed nice.

(Doubling all Hermetic Form bonuses, not just the defenses would also be very pretty!)

Speaking of Sahirs, Solomonic Arts are Abilities, not Arts. This means that an elder Sahir with a solomonic X score of, say 20, can train a student for 20xp/season (!!) rather than teach or mess around with turgid texts; no special virtues required, or even a Teaching score.

Puissant Solomonic X isn't that good, since it's only +2, but Cautious with Solomonic X becomes possible and attractive, potentially reducing botch dice to 0.

FWIW, the thing that makes SFB pop (for me) isn't so much the -3 bonus to aging rolls, but that aging rolls are deferred from age 35 to 50. These 15 years at 15xp/year == the 225xp that gets bandied about.

Sure, but they can't be used for just any Ability, and certain concepts will benefit more than others from the extra 225 xp.
What about Magister in Artibus? It's not been brought up as a best virtue, but it is pretty awesome for the 240 xp.
Put 75 xp in Latin with MiA and that frees up 50 xp during apprenticeship which can be put into Arts. Increase Artes Liberales and Philisophiae to some pretty high levels, too, and rituals, ceremonial casting are a lot easier.

One character currently being played has been maintaining his teaching credentials by teaching at the University of Paris one season a year (the idea is that since the covenant supports him, he can maintain his reputation as if her were Wealthy). He recently was told by a belligerent Redcap (my character is a Merceris magus) that he has to take an apprentice, that no one else is available, and he's sadly had to resign from the university to prepare himself to take an apprentice and also have time to teach said apprentice.

Or Cathedral School Master, or Doctor in (Faculty) which offers 300 xp. Above and beyond the 15xp per year.

I still prefer SFB because the 225xp is a "Minor" portion of the Virtue, and you can use Failed Apprentice to open up Arcane/Academic. Or Warrior and its ilk.

Why stop at Magister when you can be a Doctor and get even more xp! Agreed, the 300xp are nice (or even a Magister's 240 :slight_smile:.) A Sahir would enjoy this virtue even more than a magus, since we've been talking about those guys.

The Magister xp are higher quality, but I admit that I like SFB better. Brawl, Etiquette, Concentration, Charm, Guile, Area Lore, Arabic, Second Sight, Leadership, Survival, Craft, Music... these restrictive xps aren't so restrictive. And then you get Second Sight. And Faerie Eyes. And a special benefit. Taking Covenant or Faerie Upbringing costs nothing and opens things up a bit. Outlaw Leader could also be interesting, though it is technically illegal for a magus. Baccalaureate costs something, but provides 90xp and opens up all Academic Abilities. But I don't think any of these are needed.

But sure, Magister and Doctor are great virtues, utterly worthy. (I think a grog character whose only virtue is Doctor or Magister makes complete sense. A Magic University saga, for example, would be well-served by ordinary professors being Magister or Doctor grogs, just give each a weird personality flaw, but the featured faculty members are companions with more stuff.)

Strike 2... :smiley:

Huh?

I'm not sure I'd consider any "bonus" provided by a supernatural Art/ability as a "defense", particularly for the purpose of that Greater Magical Defenses Virtue. It seems to me that it's meant to work only with the specific types of "defenses" listed in the introduction of HMRE - accelerated expiry etc.; and in particular with "limited magical defenses that reduce the effect of magic" (HMRE p.10), since the Virtue makes a character "unusually difficult to affect with magic".

Well, there's the age issue. It is possible to create a magus character with MiA that doesn't have to make aging rolls without benefit of an LR, or an LR made during apprenticeship. The Doctor will push a magus character to be older than 35 at gauntlet.

Which raises another important distinction, certain virtues are better for each class of character.

We were talking RAW. By the RAW, the Solomonic buffs are called Magical Defenses, with all the rights and privileges pertaining thereto. If you want to errata that for your saga, go for it.

Characters in the Muslim world can't get the Magister in Artibus degree. Per the letter of the rules, they can get Doctor, however. I'd say (with a different curriculum and language of instruction, and no formal degrees) that that's a feature, not a bug. :wink: My revised version of the Virtue for completeness' sake:

Islamic Scholar (Major, Social Status)

You are an 'alim, an Islamic scholar who has completed a course of studies at a madrasah. While you have no formal degree, your fellow scholars respect you for your knowledge, and you may teach anywhere in the Islamic world, including at the buyut al-hikma of the Suhhar Suleyman, or seek another prestigious position, such as a mufti, qadi, or advisor to a secular ruler.

A character starting the game with this Virtue must be at least (27 – Intelligence) years old. He must have a score of 5 in Arabic, Artes Liberales, Islamic Law and Theology (Islam). The character has spent ten years at a madrasah and receives an additional 300 experience points, which must be spent on Languages (living or dead) and Academic Abilities; it is expressly permitted to spend these points on Academic Abilities related to other cultures, such as Theology (Christian). He also begins the game with an Academic Reputation of 3.

Like other working characters, he must spend two seasons a year practicing his profession, either teaching or working in a secular or religious court. Both the Wealthy Virtue and the Poor Flaw are allowable, but players must decide what calamity befell such an erudite scholar if he is Poor, for which he receives a Bad Reputation at a level of 2. This Virtue is compatible with the Sahir Virtue. It is only available to male characters, but it is compatible with the Dhimmi Flaw.

Nota Bene: I would use the term 'Alim, but there's already a social status virtue by that name, one of the two virtues corresponding roughly to the European "Clerk."

I'm sorry, I thought it was you who made this mistake last time... :blush: You can only Latin and AL with those 90 xp but it still opens all Academics.

... Which in no way contradicts what he said, so he made no mistake.

I've recently become a big fan of Chthonic Magic. If you're willing to embrace your "dark side" so to speak and have a way to circumvent the spells showing up as Infernal under Magical incrimination, it's extremely powerful. My personal favorite use of it is certainly in the lab, as if you don't mind sacrificing a black goat or the like it's effectively a Focus in everything. Of course, it also allows you to achieve much larger Penetration totals in practical usage, and instead of being scared of Infernal vis like you usually have to be, you actually benefit from using what is otherwise considered too dangerous to use, as you add your Chthonic Magic score to your Magic Theory score when using Infernal vis for purposes of determining how much you can use, and its dangerous effects are all negated. That's fantastic for opening difficult items and such; even just 15 xp in the Ability, and you effectively have Puissant Magic Theory when using Infernal vis. And it stacks with Puissant Magic Theory, in case you already have that anyway. You get a host of new Ranges, Durations, and Targets and can benefit rather than be penalized for being in Infernal auras too, to boot. But at the end of the day, the greatest benefit is definitely the effective Focus in everything if accompanied with a sinful activity. The only effect it has that isn't quite nice is allowing you to use your score in Chthonic Magic instead of Magic Theory when engaging in "sinful" activities, simply because no magus in their right mind is going to have a higher score in Chthonic Magic (whose score only even matters as it pertains to boosting Magic Theory...) than Magic Theory itself. Can cause you to get Marched if you're not supremely careful, so it might have trouble being called the best Virtue, but in terms of mechanical effects it's extremely powerful (among the best) and provides you with a large range of benefits, some of which would be worth Major Virtues by themselves.

(I do wonder why it's allowed to be a Supernatural Virtue. I suppose that means it's eligible for use with UnGifted Hedgies too? Neat. I wonder how that could be abused. Or inversely, if it'd even be worth it.)

The "Hermetic" and "Supernatural" tags aren't always clear. For example, for some reason Gentle Gift is a Hermetic Virtue, despite this making no sense whatsoever.

I think the intent was for CM to be tagged as both Hermetic and Supernatural because it's birealm, not to allow it to be taken as non-Hermetic. Particularly because most hedgies don't have a Magic Theory.

Actually, the Hermetic and Supernatural tags are QUITE clear. Hermetic means it can only be taken by Gifted characters; the label is simply weird because the name was chosen when basically all Gifted characters would at least attempt to become Hermetic Magi (or try to avoid being forced to try, at any rate) at some point in their play career; there weren't other options for Gifted characters that required their own Virtues, so all Gifted-only Virtues were by their nature Hermetic.

But they still have the same definition. The naming is just weird. Supernatural Virtues mean anyone can take them; Hermetic Virtues mean only Gifted characters can. Thus, Chthonic Magic being both Hermetic and Supernatural is a sign to me that it can be classified as Hermetic for magi and the like, but it's also able to be taken by the UnGifted.

Huh. The corebook virtues could use a bit of unpacking (since "Skilled Parens" is clearly related to Hermetic social structure, while anyone with a Gift should be able to get Gentle Gift, and there's now reasons why Magical Memory should not be Gift-restricted at all).

That is one of those worst virtues...:smiley:

Magical Memory? For a Hermetic magus, yes. Learned Magicians derive a little more benefit from it because they don't need laboratories (except if they practice alchemy) and can make chartae on the fly.

But those are all listed as "defenses" in tC&tC, aren't they? Not saying you'd be wrong to rule that way, but I do think by the book they would get doubled.

The Sahir chapter in tC&tC attaches the same name used by HMRE to a different description (compare the descriptions on p.10 of HMRE and on p.48 of tC&tC). I assume then it's just a(n unfortunate) case of homonimy, and that when HMRE refers to "Magical Defenses" it refers to those in HMRE, and when tC&tC does it referers to (Sahir) "Magical Defenses" in tC&tC.

Hmm. Will it? If I'm not mistaken, the time spent at university can run in parallel with apprenticeship.

Depends on how it's played. Played RAW, CM is a horrible, horrible virtue. It isn't enough to sin, you have to actually know that what you are doing is wrong. If you manage to justify it, oops, no benefit. Fast lane to hell.

Of course, many sagas won't play it that way. "Oh, no, I just said a dirty word! Now I have the power to save those villagers!" Or, "I'm a pagan, so a quick prayer to Pluto is what I'd do anyway, and now I have power!"