The Best and Worst Virtues

Games Discussion Ars Magica
361

And your basis for this is?

It may be possible, in some extremely complex character generation method. But even granting that it is possible, it would be an unusual magus who allows his apprentice to go to university for two seasons a year, and under the Code teach for one season a year, only to get one season of work out of the apprentice for over half (2/3rds, 8 years of two seasons per year for matriculating and 2 years of 2 seasons teaching) of the apprenticeship.

While it is possible it is incredibly unlikely to happen.

362

I think that calling it homonymity "but not the same thing" is reaching for ways to stretch the RAW. Magi, sahirs and each hedge wizard tradition all have their own variants on the exact same concept, and what you're saying amounts to "it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, but it's not a duck."

The way I'd do it is to errata (accepting that this is a houserule, and not trying to Aristotle around classifying Solomonic Magical Defenses as Magical Defenses, because they are) that that particular virtue only applies to the specific forms of Magical Defense listed on Page 10 of HMRE, unless otherwise stated by a future form.

363

The RAW there would prevent CM from being used by someone who was extremely Depraved, though (e.g. a Dark Gnostic, who considers every action he takes to be moral by definition). Not sure that's how I'd want to play it.

364

My basis for this is the rules! :slight_smile:/2 The rules list age requirements and suggestions for when a magus graduates and the minimum age for Magisters/Doctors/etc. Your version is not listed.

You can rule your way, of course! But in a saga that runs your way, Magister/Doctor/etc are not very good virtues at all, since they are costing you years (in which you'd already get 15xp/year, so every extra year you require makes these virtues worth 15 fewer xp).

As for a magus reasonably doing this... the ones that would encourage their apprentices to get a degree at all are also likely to not need the apprentice in the lab all that much. (I'm looking at you, Jerbiton.) Also, 2 free seasons/year is an abstraction. An apprentice who "front loads" his education will have more working seasons later which will be more useful. (For example, that Verditius apprentice with a high Phil. Or that Mercurian apprentice with high Phil+AL, contributing to those big rituals the parens has been wanting to cast for years.)

365

Exactly. As a magus grew habituated to a certain level of sin, he would eventually need to push the envelope into atrocity if he wanted more power.

It's a great virtue for NPCs. It's a great virtue for players who want to play a slide into damnation.

And if the sin need only be cosmetic, it's a wonderful, wonderful, fantastic virtue with very little downside. "I'm in a tavern of ill-repute!" "I'm thinking lustful thoughts!" "I said a naughty word!"

366

Simply, neither is your version listed. You're view presumes that they can be done concurrently, my view presumes that they must be consecutive. Both points of view make presumptions on what is possible, but neither is explicitly sanctioned by the rules. And I would have to have a player who is highly motivated and makes a convincing argument as to why he should be a Magister and have it be done concurrent with the time of his apprenticeship.

I never claimed Doctor was a good virtue, I don't think it is, it's a bit out of the sweet spot for my liking. Now Magister provides 150 xp for skills that are very useful to magi: Latin and Artes Liberales, which translates to scores of 5. The remaining 90 points can also be quite useful to magi. And the other 15 xp per year of later life can be spent on academic abilities, too. So you can have high scores in Teaching (which while not useful immediately will be later), Philosophiae which is great for ceremonial and ritual magic. Yes, you start the game older, and you have to start a Longevity Ritual sooner, but this is a game that doesn't really focus on age, at least as far as magi are concerned.

It's possible that there might be a Jerbiton. A Mercurian is less likely, because of the effects of the Gift upon learning, and with the risk of interfering with mundanes being so high when the apprentice gets into an inevitable fight and uses magic, or tries to use magic and botches horribly. In a Divine Aura. But any magus who takes an apprentice is likely to have a significant backlog of lab projects that he couldn't accomplish without just an extra bit of help, even a Jerbiton magus. Concurrently becoming a Magister in Artibus while in a Hermetic apprenticeship is a horrible exchange for nearly any master. An apprentice who has already become one, can have his Arts opened in the first year, and since he's older, and probably smart be of an immediate benefit to the master in the lab. Spend the first three seasons of compulsory instruction under the Code teaching magic theory, and you've probably doubled his effectiveness as a lab assistant...

367

Since every other virtue and flaw occurs in parallel- -if you take warrior, you get 50xp without spending an extra year in the field, if you take Affinity you don't have to account for extra seasons in which that Affinity developed, if you take Monastic Vows or Priest you don't have to spend any time working up to it- -any new virtue is also probably in parallel, unless the virtue says otherwise. Since neither Magister nor Doctor say otherwise, I see no need for any special "sanction." But I do see a need for a special rule to say that these virtues involve consecutive years, since that would be an exception to the general case.

That said, regardless of what the rules say, what they mean, or what the authors wanted them to mean, anyone can rule however they please and enjoy.

Your way, I think Magister is a lousy virtue, skirting the edge of the List of Worst virtues. IIRC, it adds 8 years to your age and provide 240 xps. Effectively, then, the virtue is worth 120 xp (8 years already provides 120xp). That's less than 50xp/virtue point (lower than the lowest bound of any other xp-providing virtues.) Heck, even Educated is better than that. Doctor is slightly better.

The <50xp/vp aspect of your preferred ruling hints at a problem.

My way, Magister is good and Doctor is very good. Latin 5, AL 5, Phil 5... I think that's 225xp. A Doctor has 75xp remaining for Law, Medicine or Theology, not the greatest xp but still useful (Law for a Tytalus, Quaesitor or Jerbiton; Theology for the religiously inclined; Medicine for experimental philosophers (recover fatigue!) and Ex Misc with the appropriate Solomonic Art. A Magister has 15xp to be spent academically.

And I don't think a player has to go far to justify it. He put in more hours. He had some awesome teachers/texts. He didn't spend time carousing. He had some kind of magical help. He was given more seasons. His parens didn't care about using him in the lab, as long as he got the vis from his Personal Vis Source. (And my favorite, "let's just handwave, because the whole free vs nonfree seasons/year thing is just an approximation, except for lab work.")

But....

368

Compare

  • "The fifteen years of apprenticeship give the character 240 experience points, and 120 levels of spells."
  • "You have, however, spent eight years in a university, and gain an additional 30 experience points in each of those years, for a total of 240 additional experience points over and above your allowance based on age."
  • "gain an additional 50 experience points"

Both use "additional" and MiA specifies "allowance based on age", whereas apprenticeship is a hard stop. A strict reading would mean you cannot gain Warrior during those 8 years.

Doctor and Cathedral only use "additional" which is not enough to forbid concurrent apprenticeship.
{BTW, the big joke is that apprenticeship only gives 15xp more than 15 years @ 15 xp. More than enough time for something else.}

369

Your math is off as is your reading of the virtue. First you gain an additional 240 xp, above and beyond what your age would grant. There is a hard 240 xp, and then a variable amount which is a function of your intelligence (a dumber MiA gets more experience points, which is kind of pervese, but I digress). But we will go with your 8 years, you get 8x15+240=360 xp. All of which can be spent on Academic abilities, and of which 150 xp must be spent on Latin and Artes Liberales. 210 xp can be spent on a mixture of Academic abilities and any later life ability which isn't restricted to you.
MiA gives a character 240xp/3 virtue points or 80 xp per virtue point. There is additional XP to be added, which is a function of the character's intelligence. All characters would get these xp by setting their age to the same level, so I'm not counting them in a the ration of XP/virtue points.

No. See above.

Again, your analysis is a bit flawed, and while you don't think a player has to justify why a character can complete a Hermetic Apprenticeship concurrent with matriculating and then ultimately incepting and teaching for two seasons a year for 2 years, I don't think your analysis necessarily justifies your point of view. I like to view characters holistic to the setting and there are probably less than a handful of magi who would take an apprentice and allow them to pursue a Magister in Artibus while being apprenticed to the magus.

370

Upon rereading The Mysteries, an Astrological Major Focus is more broken than a dragon in a china shop. For example, a Focus in Benefacta includes "worthy causes." If you can't use that for almost every spell you ever cast, you're not trying.

371

I'm not sure about what you are saying.
First, I don't understand why it's the dragon in the china shop that's broken, rather than china shop around the dragon.
Second, I don't understand why a Focus in Benefacta would be broken. I would say it's very vague and requires adjudication by the troupe, but that's one reason why it's not necessarily broken. What would you say it applies to?
Third, I agree that a magus who tries can apply his focus to every spell he ever casts. But that is true regardless of the focus in question. The nature of the focus just limits how versatile that magus can be by not casting spells outside his focus.

372

It's still the case that an Astrological Focus is significantly broader than other major foci, because it collects several major and minor foci for the price of one major one. (For example, instead of taking a Mentem focus in Emotions, take an astrological focus in Cancer, which includes that but also some other influences that you might be able to use.)

"Worthy causes" just happens to be unusually vague and, likely, unusually broadly applicable.

373

An Astrological Minor Focus in a House is even more broken! Check some of those goodies out... for only a minor virtue, leaving a major hermetic virtue for something else.

374

A House is a Major Focus (Mysteries 55-56, under Degree of Mercury).

375

Check the rules themselves, where the virtue is defined. Planet or Sign is major, house is minor.

376

More people haven't said True Love/True Friend? I know it's kinda situational and certainly corny, but it gives you access to power unbreakable even by Hermetic magic! It doesn't do much against a quick fireball to the face, but just try restraining him or wiping his memories and you'll be in for a rather rude awakening. What other Virtue skips the whole "giving you MR or making you immune to something" and just lets you punched by a spell, only for you to punch the spell back while wearing a hipster love headband!? Fight magic with [strike]wife-status[/strike] / [strike]the urge to indiscriminately bone the opposite gender[/strike] / [strike]hippy-power[/strike] family-friendly love and friendship!? None! This Virtue is the best thing since God's first miracle, and laughs just as hard as Hermetic magic to boot. (Or all magic... Or things that aren't Magic, for that matter.)

True Love/Friend[strike]zone[/strike], baby.

377

Huh (looks like writers failed to communicate properly). Well, you're right, it's very broken.

378

And true broken happens when you add RoP:F to the mix, and take a positive Faerie Correspondence with a House which is legal RAW because it has the same coverage as a minor focus....

:>

(In both cases, I mean my idea of broken, which differs from simply being powerful: A focus that covers something like 'achievement' works with pretty much everything: I set him on fire! Achievement unlocked. I bound a familiar! I skinned a cat!.... Ditto for 'work' or 'worthy causes'....

379

If you look at the top of the current page of character designs, I used Minor Focus:House (mortis) because in addition to Death (which is normally a minor focus) I got accidents and mysticism thrown in for free.
"Worthy causes" sounds good...until you get CJ as a storyguide, and he proceeds to debate the moral worthiness of each action according to the moral virtues laid down by the Cappadocian church fathers, and several hours later you don't get the bonus.

380

The real problem with debate in AM is that since canonically, some propositions are true as well as their opposites, everything is true.