I'm not yet done consulting RoP: Faerie and Cradle and the Crescent to make the Jinn that I'm wrapping into Dionora's backstory.
For the moment here's an Aquam spell that has a lot of moving parts. It's on her to do list even if it might be too much for the first period
I used rego aquam because the base guideline for the movement was level 5 while the base guideline for creation of the water was only level 3
That makes sense in terms of the level, but it's really a Cr(Re)Aq spell, isn't it, even if the secondary part requires a few extra magnitudes?
That was my thinking as well, but I found this bit of text on page 114 which says that I should go for the higher level guideline rather than the one more descriptive of the final effect.
Ah, my mistake. It's been so long since I read that; good to reread it.
In order to go further I need to to get the story of her enemies flaw better defined but I don't really need a full sheet of numbers at this point.
I looked through the Faerie book and Cradle and the Crescent for inspiration, but it's not as if I did detailed study. Please look this over and tell me if it would work.
This is a group of in-cognizant Impious (dark Faerie) Jinn of the Shaitan tribe. Their are attracted to and play out stories of power.
The Cohort of Abbas al-Hamara (the red lion) is a group of faerie jinn who make deals with nobles pursuing war. They present themselves as a group of competent mercenaries eager to take a contract at a reasonable price to fight in the conflicts of their perspective employer. Their supernatural nature allows them to be very successful but they are also given to wanton destruction and other immoral behavior. They gain vitality from the conflict their employer ha between their need /greed for success in martial endeavors and their presumed guilt at being responsible for the evils that their troops wreak. After some success the cohort finds a way for their excesses to inflame such rage against their employer that the employer's downfall is assured. The cohort than ends their contract and heads off to Jinnestan or another patron, while reaping even more vitality from the story of their former patron's destruction.
The Cohort was responsible for the murder of much of Dionora's village and family. While the cohort's patron was brought down after the senseless slaughter of so many. Dionora's mentor, an Iberian Merinita of some experience realized exactly what was going on. As a child Dionora had personally sworn to Abbas al-Hamra that she'll grind the withered remains of his dead spirit to dust. The faerie himself, being both in-cognizant and recently defeated by her mentor saw no reason not to take this threat quite seriously, even from a young girl about to be apprenticed.
Does that story hold together?
Hi,
Sure.
If I want to find a nit, the part about "the cohort finds a way for their excesses to inflame such rage against their employer that the employer's downfall is assured" might be a bit off.
For one thing, it comes off a bit moralistic, more along the Divine/Infernal axis than about Faerie. For another, you describe the Faerie as being incognizant, so I don't expect him to manage his own story, especially since he doesn't need to: He gets vitality from being hired, from killing, and from whatever reaction he inspires, whether it be an enraged uprising or abject fear, whether it inspires a hero to 'kill' the faeries or inspires the patron to get away with worse deeds or to repent. Kill, rape, loot and pillage: Something wonderful has to come of that.
But it's a nit.
Anyway,
Ken
I like it.
But why is that last part I quotes above important, that the Jinn believes the threat? Is it because it runs away and hides, so Dionora has a hard time finding him and enacting the revenge?
I agree that it seems moralistic. While actions have consequences isn't particularly moralistic, your sins will come back to haunt you is. Yet the faerie wants to have its story told. The incognizant faeries that have stories that involve getting themselves killed surely don't consciously plan it, but their are on some level looking to finish the story.
how about I make it a predilection rather than a certainty? Like this:
The Cohort of Abbas al-Hamara (the red lion) is a group of faerie jinn who make deals with nobles pursuing war. They present themselves as a group of competent mercenaries eager to take a contract at a reasonable price to fight in the conflicts of their perspective employer. Their supernatural nature allows them to be very successful but they are also given to wanton destruction and other immoral behavior. They gain vitality from the conflict their employer has between their need /greed for success in martial endeavors and their presumed guilt at being responsible for the evils that their troops wreak. After some success the cohort is inclined to find a way for their excesses to inflame such rage against their employer that the employer's downfall is very likely. The cohort than ends their contract and heads off to Jinnestan or another patron, while reaping even more vitality from the story of their former patron's destruction.
It is because if the Jinn doesn't see Dianora as a threat he doesn't have motivation to be much of an enemy. My vision for the enemy flaw is an entity that is working towards the downfall of the character.
I agree that it seems moralistic. While actions have consequences isn't particularly moralistic, your sins will come back to haunt you is. Yet the faerie wants to have its story told. The incognizant faeries that have stories that involve getting themselves killed surely don't consciously plan it, but their are on some level looking to finish the story.
how about I make it a predilection rather than a certainty? Like this:
The Cohort of Abbas al-Hamara (the red lion) is a group of faerie jinn who make deals with nobles pursuing war. They present themselves as a group of competent mercenaries eager to take a contract at a reasonable price to fight in the conflicts of their perspective employer. Their supernatural nature allows them to be very successful but they are also given to wanton destruction and other immoral behavior. They gain vitality from the conflict their employer ha between their need /greed for success in martial endeavors and their presumed guilt at being responsible for the evils that their troops wreak. After some success the cohort is inclined to a way for their excesses to inflame such rage against their employer that the employer's downfall is very likely. The cohort than ends their contract and heads off to Jinnestan or another patron, while reaping even more vitality from the story of their former patron's destruction.
It is because if the Jinn doesn't see Dianora as a threat he doesn't have motivation to be much of an enemy. My vision for the enemy flaw is an entity that is working towards the downfall of the character.
Experience for first 15 year period
ten years 300 xp
faerie lore raised to 3 for 25
Magic theory raised to 5 for 25
Aquam to 16 (1) for 47 (with affinity)
parma to 3 for 15
creo to 11 for 30 (with affinity)
Rego to 10 for 40
Herbam at 9 for 45
perdo to 8 for 30
Vim to 8 for 15
Muto at 5 for 15
Intellego at 4 for 10 and
ignem at 2 for 3
that leaves 20 seasons for lab work.
Two to set up a standard lab
The helm of sweet water spell above takes another two seasons
Taking advantage of imbued with spirit of aquam, she develops the following three spells
While she could probably learn this from lab notes (Don't try and convince me that the order hasn't developed this before) she can get it done in a single season without notes so she will.
I would have developed it to create a single spring but rituals need to be at least level 20 so there was no reason not to go with target group. Unless you think that the flexibility of being able to create a smaller group of springs is not warranted without increased level. Is a variable sized group OK?
The following two spells she'll learn from lab notes
This was actually a spell from Hector of Annulus Connectens but when I looked at the original I decided that it needed an Herbam requisite and it could have an additional magnitude. So Darkwing I worked out a different spell than you did. Please give mine a look to see where we differed and if you have issues with my version.
Similarly
Would it be reasonable to decrease the size modifier and add a magnitude for extraordinary quality? Or does that not make sense if my liquids are coming straight from the realm of forms?
Hi,
Hmm. There's a nit that I forgot to mention, a nit that I often have, though usually with spells that attempt to have a ReMe effect without actually involving Re or Me:
The faeries can certainly escalate their atrocities in intensity and outrageousness. But unless they have a power to specifically compel or inspire rage against their employer, the reaction of outsiders will vary dramatically. Some people might feel outrage against the employer. But others might blame the mercenaries, or all faeries in general, or march on the king who is really to blame for all this. Or witches. And if they do feel outrage against the employer, said employer might have great social skills, allowing him to deflect the blame to someone else. Of course, they might not feel outrage at all, but terror, and choose to flee. Or they might become inspired to band together as even more brutal mercenaries and hire themselves out to someone even nastier than the faeries' employer. Anyway, the employer can always terminate the contract after a single mission, before the mercenaries really get rolling.
As mercenaries of a particularly brutal bent, the faeries can certainly inspire strong reactions, from which they can gain vitality, and it might not really matter what those reactions are. But without something more, those reactions ought not be under their control because people have agency.
A faerie can kidnap a maiden, provide luxury beyond imagining, and warn her not to open one particular door. Over time, as she gets bored, she might open that door and trigger the faerie's favorite story. But... she might do something else entirely, maybe even trick the faerie into opening the door for her, and then the faerie gets to draw vitality from a different story.
A faerie can provide a beggar with a hot meal, but the beggar might feel gratitude... or might feel inspired to rob the rich faerie blind.
Do you really want this particular reaction? It's your faerie! I kind of think that faerie mercenaries that just ramp up the atrocities and revel in it while being effective at their job is a particularly awesome idea precisely because all sorts of strange things can happen, and meanwhile, the faeries draw vitality from everyone. And if the employer manages to succeed and pass his winnings to an heir, along with the faerie mercenaries, there's a lot of vitality to be gained from that too.
Again, it's a nit.
Anyway,
Ken
I’m not sure about the flexible sized group, formulaic magic is supposed to be quite rigid.
About it being a ritual and level 20, why not bump up the Range or the size?
I think the group of springs should be a Ritual of Seven Springs - partly because the alliteration is attractive, and partly because there's an English village of Seven Springs not far from me & CJ.
I've checked The Magic Vinter - looking at the core rulebook, "creeping oil" and "footsteps of slippery oil" don't use a Herbam (for vegetable oil) or Terram (for mineral oil) requisite, so I didn't feel the need to add requisites for Hector's version. However the level 2 guideline does say "Fill a container with water (or some other natural liquid, with appropriate requisites)" and wine and olive oil (or walnut oil, or linseed oil) are all plant-derived so your version fits better with the CrAq guideline as written. checks Magi of Hermes no, nobody creating liquids other than water there - it looks like we are brave pioneers of Aquam.
A lot of the definitions in Aquam seem to need interpretation. They're very fluid-
Er. I mean...
I always worked on the concept that Aquam was non-life liquids. Non-animal, non-herbam, non-Corpus. Four-elemental things that are liquid in normal temperatures.
Aquam description defines that it affects all liquids, except those inside a body.
Creo Aquam guidelines mention for base 2 (create liquid in a container) that it may require appropriate requisite. Guidelines for base 3 (create liquid not contained - like spread over a surface) or base 4 (create liquid in unnatural shape - like sphere over someone's head) do not mention this requisite. But I think the only logical interpretation is to require this here as well..
Sadly the example spells Creeping Oil or Footsteps of Slippery Oil do mention this, so a conflict arises.
I would vastly prefer if the requisites are enforced, whenever you want 'special effects'. If all you want is slippery grease I'll waive it. If you want flammable oil, I'd want a requisite, and I'd accept Animal, Herbam or Terram since all 3 forms could produce some kind if flammable oil. If you want to create actual consumable fluids, with taste and effects (as non-permanent Creo magic goes), like beer, juice, wine etc I'd also want a requisite. Herbam most likely, although did the vikings not make some kind of mead from honey, or was there also plant products in that?
For corrosive and poisonous liquids I oddly enough find myself not wanting requisites. Mainly because the guidelines for these are sufficiently difficult, and because Animal, Herbam, or Terram by themselves can create a poisonous substance - and in these cases the 'poison' aspect is more important than the 'liquid' and these should not require an Aq req.
Just my 2 øre (Danish equivalent of cents)
I suppose I somehow missed that requisite-list when re-skimming the pdf on my lunch break. At least I can tell you creating mineral oil is not a needing a Terram requisite because it's a creo spell.
But lets look at your quote too, because I really want to know what people think.
So is affecting mineral oil in an amphora:
I prefer simplicity to complexity in rules, so the wording on page 79 seems to me to be the basic rule overriding others. That also means the oil spells as designed are in fact ok,and the wording about requisites in one (only) of the guidelines is an error. THis should be disregarded.
So the answer is d) (either Aquam or Terram)
However I would vastly prefer b) (Aquam only), for a number of reasons.
One is simplicity about the amounts affected. Creating mineral-, fish-, or vegetable oil using Terram, Animal, or Herbam is more difficult to gauge when looking at their Base Individuals. And I would really, really like it if ice is just Aquam and not also Terram. Terram is already very useful and encompassing, it does not need to be any better. Consequently, ice becomes a weaker substance, if it can be undone or manipulated by just any random Terram capable magus. What makes a magus wanting to use ice ever choose to do it with Aquam, if he can use Terram and be equally good with earth, stone, glass, metal etc.?
In my sage (and Tellus') a substance is affected by the Form it really is, whatever physical state it might be. Ice is Aquam, no wavering about that. Lava is Terram with (Ignem req), but no magnitudes added, because the heat is necessary. Damage uses the scale for Ignem, but in MR Terram is added to PM. However we have yet to discuss the liquids, as we are now right here. And calling all liquids Aquam sort of contradicts what I just mentioned.
I disagree, not so much with your approach because it’s really soundly presented and thought through in the context of Ars paradigms on the liquid aspects of the Forms; but I think saying that each materials need to fit to just one Form is just too limiting. And you’ll keep bashing against this issue each time one of the clever mongrels on these forums finds another edge case (I mean that with the most respect) which snaps the recent hard fought new solution.
I think it is a far better solution (and a far simpler approach, which requires more complexity in execution) to allow multiple forms to affect some substances. Not all, just some.
Ars has Arts which are deliberately imperfect and non-uniform. We accept the imperfection of shadows and invisibility, that steam and lava are often special, and that many baselines across some forms are significantly different (creating a bird vs reptile vs mammal vs human). Some Techniques also have very similar solutions to a goal which are very unbalanced when compared. That’s the Hermetic magic system by design and we gain friction in the setting by accepting it.
Sure, allowing mineral oil to be created with both Aquam and Terram avoids the discussion about it. But then you get the challenge of:
a) Determining which Terram guideline is used: Is it dirt, rock/glass, metal, gemstone?
b) How much is affected? Base Individual definitions for solids often make no sense for liquids.
c) Should there be differences in Bases depending on how the substance is created? Aquam is easier if contained, Terram and others make so such distinctions
And the same goes for Animal for affecting fish oil, and for Herbam for affecting wine, juice, beer, olive oil etc.
But I'm all for solving that.
a) Aquam creates oil using Bases between 2 (in container) to 4 (floating in air). Terram should use Base 3 (stone), because dirt (base 1) and metal (base 5) are both way off. This is equivalent to Aquam on a surface, and there is no discount for creating in a container. The usual "+1 mag for extras" easily covers floating blobs of oil.
b) Aquam creates what? If oil counts as "Corrrosive and otherwise dangerous liquids" i get from "a pool 1 foot across, 6 inches deep at the middle" to about 7 liters. If it's "processed liquids" it's "A pool 1 pace across and half a pace deep at the middle" for about 225 liters. Base Ind for stone is a cubic pace, that's close to 1.000 liters by my simplified calculations. Maybe the Base could be as rock but the amount could be less?
The Base amounts for Herbam and Animal is even worse! Animal created 1 animal up to Size +1, but is it "a mass of animal oil equal to the mass of a Size +1 animal"? If so it could easily be 2-300 liters. For Herbam the base is "a plant roughly 1 pace in each dimension". While plants have a lot of small branches with air inbetween I assume at most half this volume is actual wood, which would have a density around 800 kg/m3, So that's 400 kg tops, and with oil's density being lower than water's it easily 400 liters.
c) I think managed to defuse that under a)