I'll try this with base levels added, so that we can make comparisons.
Volume calculations are at the end of the post.
Aquam:
base 2 outside in a container / base 3 outside of a container / base 4 in an unnatural shape
20 000L for water
2 000L for naturally occurring liquids
200L for processed liquids
20L for dangerous substances (corrosive liquid, flammable oil...)
1 dose for poisons
The lvl 5 CreAn guideline which creates a single hair, tusk or hide seems inapplicable to liquids.
Animal and Herbam specify that you need 1 extra magnitude as compared to the creation of an animal corpse or a plant, which gives: Animal: lvl 15 for 200L Herbam: lvl 2 for 200L Terram: lvl 3 for 1000L if we take the stone baseline Terram: lvl 4 for 1000L if not naturally occurring, to keep the spirit of the rule that the other forms have For all of them, corrosive or flammable liquids should require an extra magnitude and divide volume by 10, as for Aquam
[b]* Aquam has the lowest base inside of a container, and same volume as the others or more
Herbam has the lowest base level outside of a container, for 200L of relevant treated liquids
Aquam is best for all other liquids outside of a container
Terram does okay for mineral liquids
It compares best for naturally occurring mineral liquids outside of a container, where it gives half the volume that an Aquam spell gives at the same level
Animal is so overpriced that an Animal specialist should probably use the other Forms anyway.[/b]
Volume calculations:
Animal:
Going by the size table in RoP:F p49, Size+1 is 215-465 lbs
465 lbs is 210 kg, or as many liters for water or similar liquids, rounded to 200L
Herbam:
I'd argue that a plant that is 1 cubic pace is mostly air, since a plant so low wouldn't have a thick trunk.
I'd assume 20% wood and feel generous, so that's 20% of 1000L = 200L
Aquam:
A puddle is basically half of a spheroid
The base water individual is given as a pool 15 feet across, 6 feet deep, which gives 20 000L
The other types of liquids are defined based on this, with divisions by 10, and the puddle are described as "about" equivalents. The calculation gives these:
6 feet across, 3 feet deep: 1 600L
3 feet across, 1.5 feet deep: 200L
1 foot across, 6 inches deep: 30L
A lot of this discussion seems weird to me, when we're defining things as 'mineral liquids' and 'animal liquids'.... It's starting to feel as if the only pure Aquam-liquid is water, and all others are rooted in some other form. Oils are all suddenly animal or terram (or both, thanks fossil fuels), fruit juices are herbam-liquids, poisons are mostly animal or herbam liquids.... So Aquam is water and... uh... other things with requisites.
Requisites are for affecting blood inside a body. But if the blood is outside a body, it is just Aquam. If you want to make a paralelism, you cannot put poison or other liquid inside a body without Corpus (or Animal or Herbam, depending on the target).
But creating or manipulating the poison outside a body is just Aquam without requisites. Creating any kind of oil should be just Aquam, unless you what that liquid in a body.
The only contradiction to this is that mention about requisites in the guideline, but let's check them:
I know that the common sense, and probably the grammar, says that the requisites are related to the "other natural liquid" part. But requisites are only mentioned in the container-related guideline. What if the requisites are only related to the container? Inside a human body, Corpus. Inside an anphora, Terram.
Following this to the natural conclusion, Aquam can create any natural liquid; Also, Herbam can create juice, animal can create poison, and corpus can create blood? Or would you argue that it's all Aquam?
You can clearly create juice, blood or poison with Aquam. Aquam even has specific guidelines for this last one (Level 5 Create a poison that causes a Light Wound and so on). Anything liquid can be created by Aquam.
I suppose that you can also use the others to create those things. Now that I am writing, I have remembered that even if manipulating lava uses Aquam because it is in liquid form, creating it uses Terram:
Discovery of Seven Springs
CrAq 20 (Ritual)
R: Touch, D: Mom., T: Ind.
This spell creates a group of seven springs centered around the location touched by the caster. Dianora of Merinita's version creates springs that, due to the way the water in them flows, are always covered in ripples.
Base 5 "create a spring with a high rate of flow" +1 touch, +2 group)
I revised the spell so it no longer had a variable target
The Magic Vinter
CrAq 20 ritual
R: Voice, D: Mom., T Group, +1 size
This is a momentary ritual to fill containers with wine. The total volume filled can be as much as 1000 large barrels. As a result of Dianora's sigil the created liquids nearly always have ripples on their surfaces when first encountered.
(base 2 "Fill a container with water (or some other natural liquid), +2 voice, +2 group, +2 size)
and
Bounty of Unseen Presses
CrAq 20 ritual
R: Voice, D: Mom., T Group, +1 size
This is a momentary ritual to fill containers with fine quality olive oil. The total volume filled can be as much as 1000 large barrels. As a result of Dianora's sigil the created liquids nearly always have ripples on their surfaces when first encountered.
(base 2 "Fill a container with water (or some other natural liquid), +2 voice, +2 group, +2 size)
After reading the preceding discussion I removed that herbam requisites. But then I read the guideline that I quoted "with appropriate requisites". Yet then I'm back to the discussion saying that the guideline is wrong. I very much doubt that particular guideline had as much thought put into it as you guys put into your previous posts. I got rid of the requisite and with it, the need for laboratory notes.
This takes her through seven of her twenty seasons. She has 13 seasons left. I might have some notes left from last January otherwise I've got at least two ideas, and I can take a look at improving her lab. It's not going to be easy to jump back in to Dionora. I don't have a big to do list for her aside from animae magic.
Nice - I approve with doing away with the requisites. (I suppose you should make it clear in the character sheet that you're doing this, given it's at best an ambiguous rules interpretation point.)
Thoughts for uses of aquam:
Enchantment of the Scrying Pool is an interesting non-standard spell your maga could be interested in understanding.
Poisons might be an interesting topic, in the context of the intrigue we're expecting with the Order of Suleiman.
The depths of the lake of Galilee might be well-worth exploring.
To our south is the Dead Sea, a lake so salty you float. Could there be some spells using that property?
She's reckless enough to make some other enemies. How would you use aquam against magi?
She'll spend two seasons on this spell. It is something that I had had in mind for her. It fits better with some of the themes of future periods but it fits best with her development now.
Beetle Shell Pond
Re(Cr)Aq 30 R: touch, D: Conc. T: Ind.
The caster creates a Dome of fresh water over their head, A half-sphere of water with a radius of five paces and a thickness of half a pace, (I.e. there is a foot and a half thick wall of water that makes a dome over the caster at a distance of five feet from her). The water within this dome is swirling at the velocity of a very fast moving river. The dome moves with the caster, keeping her surrounded for the duration of the spell. The dome can move no faster than the speed of a trotting horse. If the caster moves faster than the spell can accommodate the dome will collapse when the caster moves outside of it. Dianora invented this spell planning to use it to move a group of grogs up to a defended position without exposing them to missile fire. The thickness of the water and its movement make vision through the dome exceedingly difficult without aid of magic like Clear Sight of the Naiad (core book p122). Dianora's version of this spell has ripples constantly moving over the surfaces of the dome.
(Base 10, +1 touch, +1 concentration, +1 magnitude Creo Requisite, +1 magnitude it moves with the caster)
Note that I did not make Beetle Shell Pond a potent spell. Dianora doesn't think that penetration will be relevant. She'll also spend a season to develop a duration sun version of sight of the naiad.
Gift of the Naiad's Sight
InAq 15 R: Per, D: Sun, T: Vision
You can see as clearly through water as through air, for the spell's duration. In Dianora's version of this spell the surfaces of water appear with very feint ripples on them that do not under most circumstances obscure vision.
(Base 1, +2 sun, +4 Vision)
Dianora's casting sigil in Gift of the Naiad's Sight would allow her to visually discriminate water from air. I wouldn't typically force magi to have a problem with this regardless of their casting sigil. That might not be true of everyone. Do any of you see being able to tell water from air as an issue?
I have a handful of stuff planned that uses water Dianora has an AC to. Getting an arcane connection to water is difficult. Does this work for everyone? Dianora creates an amount of water, say a bucket full. She then removes a smaller amount of the created water. This smaller bit of water acts as an arcane connection to the larger bit for a period of hours.
While you ponder that, here is a device to spruce up her lab
Dianora's Obedient Waterfall
CrAq 25 (unlimited uses per day) R: Touch, D: Conc., (Item maintains) T: Ind.
This lesser enchanted device is a pleasingly shaped 25 lb piece of dolomite.
When activated, the rock produces a steady flow of water. While the flow of water from the device is mostly constant, the water produced by the device only lasts a matter of seconds. Dianora has set up the Obedient waterfall in the corner of her laboratory on the top of a pile of other rocks so that its flow cascades down them in a pleasing fashion before disappearing as gets close to the floor. Dianora's sigil expresses itself as a series of unnatural ripples in the cascading water.
(Base 4 create a spring with a low rate of flow, +1 touch, +1 duration concentration, +5 levels item maintains concentration, +10 levels unlimited uses per day)
Adding a magic item to a laboratory is normally a free virtue but if it takes up significant space it becomes a minor virtue. Where does this fit in, in your opinion?
But please tell me if you have an issue with the Arcane connection to water.
Won’t be the presence of water extended by the duration of the spell (concentration)?
What you want to accomplish seems to be better represented by an unlimited sucession of momentary duration effects, although it is true that I don’t know any way of, let’s say, triggering the device each round without being there.
I considered that, one could have an environmental trigger such as "the on/off switch is in the on position". It just seemed like ugly design to me, so instead I went for the more complex base effect that's really "create a spring with a low rate of flow and pumps out water that has a duration of momentary". That seems in line with the abilities of creo aquam. Requiring some sort of original research to do such an -in character for the art combination- thing seems inappropriate to me.
Adding a magic item to a laboratory is normally a free virtue but if it takes up significant space it becomes a minor virtue. Where does this fit in, in your opinion?
This sounds like a free virtue to me. (If you spent another season, you could have it power a water wheel as a lesser feature, which would be a minor virtue on top of the existing free virtue.)
There's precedent for a device having a trigger of "the spell is not currently active" - it's the way the flying castle in Legends of Hermes works (pg 123). It even apparently avoids jerkiness.
What I'd really like a second opinion on is the use of a portion of a magically created volume of water to serve as an arcane connection to the rest. That was my big question.
On the matter of the fountain, while it's clear that having the fountain trigger every round is possible, I find it aesthetically displeasing. The duration of momentary is not rigorously defined and while we have the example of the flying castle, I don't like having momentary durations that last an entire six seconds.
On the other hand, by stretching the guideline a tiny bit I get a more elegant device and I'm showing good practice by demonstrating that the guidelines are not a complete description of all that can be accomplished with vanilla hermetic magic. I think slavish devotion to only the published guidelines is detrimental to the game and no fun.
Of course it might not be best for me to bring my "I don't like the way you choose to play the game as much as I like the way I choose to play the game" issues into Dionora. If there's more support for what I see as the ugly design I'll go with it.
But most importantly, is my arcane connection plan ok?
Regarding the watery AC, I will bring to your attention a similar case: Ranulf! MoH has that worthy using embers lit by the same fire as ACs to the original fire, if I am not mistaken.
So by canonical extension, this should work, even if it seems somewhat off. Blame whoever came up with that Magus’ s write up!
*edited: maybe put some similar restrictions, the liquid from which the AC is taken must keep more or less the same volume, and not become mixed with other liquids. Essentially it must be the same “batch”, much as Ranulf’s fire had to be tended to keep going to still be considered the same fire.
I don't know what came over me last night "my idea is a wonderful example of thought , and your idea is ugly..." could I get any higher up on my high horse? I was unkind and I'm so sorry.
Dianora's Obedient Waterfall
CrAq 18 (unlimited uses per day) R: Touch, D: Mom., T: Ind.
This lesser enchanted device is a pleasingly shaped 25 lb piece of dolomite.with a small brass hinge on the top. The device has an environmental trigger that activates whenever the hinge is closed.
While the hinge is closed, the device actives nearly continually producing a steady flow of water. While the flow of water from the device is mostly constant, the water produced by the device only lasts a matter of seconds. Dianora has set up the Obedient waterfall in the corner of her laboratory on the top of a pile of other rocks so that its flow cascades down them in a pleasing fashion before disappearing as gets close to the floor. Dianora's sigil expresses itself as a series of unnatural ripples in the cascading water.
(Base 4 create a spring with a low rate of flow, +1 touch, +3 levels environmental trigger, +5 levels item maintains concentration, +10 levels unlimited uses per day)
Upon reflection my issue with this plan was that I imagined that the device would activate one time per round and do so for a duration of one round more or less like clockwork. Combat rounds are an abstraction not a fundamental principle of the universe, Momentary can be up to a few seconds it isn't rigidly defined as a combat round. Those would have been unpleasant. But I look at my new description and I see no mention of rounds, none at all. My worries were unfounded.
I just was worried that water would last more than a mere moment with concentration duration.
Anyway, about the Arcane Connection, I suppose that what you propose is (almost) exactly what the core put as an example of the first and second duration of AC: "water from a moving body of water" and "water from a still body of water". Main problem being that it only last hours (or days in the second case).
I think that, while you consider it the worst situation (hours duration), you are golden. You would have to justify more with the second case.
