The Divine vs. Essential Nature

In the Hermetic theory of magic, these Limits are considered essentially separate "fundamental forces", it seems, given that further Limits derive from one or the other.

In particular, under The Limit of Warping in the core rulebook:

Most magi would like to believe that this derives from the Limit of the Divine, as that would make magic a manifestation of Divine power.

I find this... interesting...

Do any of the sourcebooks on Houses really get into interactions with the Church and how magi square their Hermetic activities with their faith? Perhaps the book on the Church does that?

At a glance, particularly after absorbing what's in the Divine sourcebook, these two Fundamental Limits seem odd considering God is literally real and created the world— hence Essential Nature is really His plan, Forms are God's perfect conception of the nature of something. The Divine being treated as separate is hard to grasp from this perspective.

It also becomes hard not to see magic as "inherently sinful", mages acting as little gods trying their best to screw with His blueprints, practically heretical in nature in the same manner as Satan. It would be slightly less screwy if God himself were treated in a Deist manner but He definitely isn't, considering the relationship angels have to Him.

What I'm really getting at is, why would anyone choose to mess with magic in a world like this? I'd take one look at the facts and drop my spellbooks in a heartbeat. I'd be convinced I was going straight to hell. I certainly couldn't be a pagan magi, or simply not care, more than "not caring" I'd expect loads of magi to be Satanists.

I also expect "magic is fading" to be pretty implicit, despite the game suggesting otherwise. As more of the world is covered in Dominion auras magi have fewer and fewer places to practice without interference...

God made the world and all in it, so clearly God intended the magi to have magic and use it.

Sure, but then that's true of any other sinful activity as well, and it runs up against questions about the nature of free will and such (you did X because it was God's plan VS. you did X because God allows His creations to act of their own accord, even when Lucifer went and decided to royally screw things up).

This sort of thing is why I'm a little discouraged by the nature of Ars Magica's setting. I'm an atheist but it's kind of impossible for me to not bring in my old understanding of what a roughly Abrahamic creator means for the world. However much Mythic Europe is a fictional setting I'm not sure how to avoid it turning into a real discussion about theology.

Well, I imagine most magi think Magic is distinctly separate from the Infernal so they are not sinning, and that their souls will end up in Final Twilight rather than hell. They may be right.

I also would like to imagine many are attracted to gnostic sects, that see the Dominion as the power of the Demiurge while the Gift is a spark of the true divine Creator.

Pagan magi are explicitly said to consider god to be a lower-g god, albeit a powerful one. Presumably they imagine their souls end up in tartarus or some pagan god's realm. Again, they may be right.

Entire Houses have explicit religious views. The Criamon basically see God as trapped at the beginning of time, almost as need of salvation as his Creation. Bjornaer see themsevlves as dormant magical spirits, and seek an afterlife in their true forms. The Tremere consider all gods, arguably also God himself, to have abandoned humanity and not be worthy of worship.

Devoutly worshipping the Divine is certainly possible, and many magi doubtlessly do that. Both Holy Magi and just regular ones. But at the same time, there is a big gap between player knowledge and character knowledge here. It's entirely possible for magi to not consider God to be the Creator, or worthy of worship, or so on, and to believe their souls will not go to hell.

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As for "magic is fading" - humanity has settled the great valleys, and trades in the great rivers. But arguably it hasn't really made headway into the great forests or high mountains in ages. Since the early days of the spread of Christianity in Europe, these have plausibly seen no great mundane enchroachement. Things can be quite stable.

One plotline I like is that as this changes in Rugen on the Batltic Seas and/r in the Atlas Mountains, the old pagan chains that bound the titans break, and they start rising again, possibly reversing the spread of the Dominion.

hence Essential Nature is really His plan, Forms are God's perfect conception of the nature of something. The Divine being treated as separate is hard to grasp from this perspective.

How much the Essential Nature is determined by the Divine is unclear- indeed, I don’t think we have an explicit statement that the Divine created the world (though I may be wrong).

My personal view is it is as within “the world” as any case of casuality for the most part- some stuff will be because the Divine appointed it, but others will happen independently even if the Divine knew it would happen. A man getting his hand cut off and that becoming part of his Essential Nature for example isn’t neccessarily a divine act.

It also becomes hard not to see magic as "inherently sinful", mages acting as little gods trying their best to screw with His blueprints, practically heretical in nature in the same manner as Satan. It would be slightly less screwy if God himself were treated in a Deist manner but He definitely isn't, considering the relationship angels have to Him.

I don’t see why altering things with magic would be any more sinful than say, altering things with mundane knowledge. Is a smith performing a sin of hubris for taking an ore and changing it into a horseshoe? Magi cannot touch or alter the Essential Nature itself, and so even if one says altering it is hubristic they don’t do so.

What I'm really getting at is, why would anyone choose to mess with magic in a world like this? I'd take one look at the facts and drop my spellbooks in a heartbeat. I'd be convinced I was going straight to hell. I certainly couldn't be a pagan magi, or simply not care, more than "not caring" I'd expect loads of magi to be Satanists.

The idea “magic is sinful” honestly if I recall correctly is not widespread in this period. That is something that pops up more later- historically speaking, most people either disbelieved most magic or saw it as something useful/dangerous but not inherently bad (to my knowledge anyway). Even if we were to go down the route magic is inherently evil- well, most magi are already varying degrees of heretics and that’s theologically worst to my knowledge.

I also expect "magic is fading" to be pretty implicit, despite the game suggesting otherwise. As more of the world is covered in Dominion auras magi have fewer and fewer places to practice without interference...

Whilst Ars does touch on “magic is fading” stuff, it’s always treated as a scenario the troupe can chase rather than the default.

My personal opinion is we’re already in the period where magic has faded- with the silencing of the oracles, the birth of Jesus Christ, the rise of Christianity, humanity’s continued growth and burgeoning knowledge the dominance of the Realms besides the Divine has lessened. Where once pagan gods were worshipped by the masses and enacted their will on whimsy, now they’re mostly withdrawn (though not entirely gone). Where once Ireland was a battleground between two supernatural races, now humanity dwells as its rightful inhabitants. Kosmokrators that define concepts of realtiy are chained, the cult of mercury fell and the like.

If the world still seems wonderous and magical- good, that is because it is. However, I don’t think it will lessen from here- it isn’t some big cosmic phenomona that caused magic to slowly ebb away or even the Divine in my opinion, but the general rule of entropy and multiple coincidences. Now however it has hit an equilibrium in my opinion.

All in all- the idea magic is sinful is one that comes later, magic fading is not neccessarily true and magic fundamentally is likely a neutral force. I find it hard to argue a magus healing a peasant who got injured is comitting a sin, especially since the act would constitute a form of charity.

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Oh right, on source books-

The Houses of Hermes books probably covers this topic best, but it isn’t really in depth. Jerbiton magi for example tend to be devout monotheists (at least by the standard of the Order) whilst Tremere are neutral or positive towards God depending on the specific Tremere. All in all however, magi are a tolerant lot who don’t place much focus on religion compared to other people during the era- some do but that is the exception.

Ars assumes Adam and Eve were real people, and one of their kids appears in Atlas material. The Noachian Deluge is also assumed to be true; and the Biblical account of how the descendants of Noah (and their languages) spread throughout the world is also a ‘fact of history’ in Atlas / Ars material. The Tower of Babel and Eden are both places that magi can go.

Certainly, individual StoryGuides and Troupes can house-rule stuff for their own table; but Ars 5e seems to advance the view that – in the game – the world is precisely as described in (and utterly trumped by) christian mythology.

Iirc Ancient Magic specifies that the whole Garden of Eden adventure and the Tower of Babel is not neccessarily canon, but rather scenarios to chase if one wants to learn adamic.

Not to say it is false- but rather, as proof it is shaky foundations I think.

Also christian mythology to an extent is false- jews and muslims benefit as much from Dominion as any Christian.

Those are not exhaustive examples; and there does not appear to be a single example of ‘Well, the christian abrahamic mythology take on this is completely wrong & pagans had it right’, or anything to indicate that the christian abrahamic god is not real & supreme. At best it is 'non-abrahamic folks do not know if they are right or not, and are gambling'. Hell and sin is certainly real.

Nor is 'other abrahamic religions / religions which are part of the syncretion that led to abrahamic religions get a pass' really reassuring.

It isn’t neccessarily just abrahamic religions but basically any monotheistic belief. One of such includes the belief in the god Sol if I recall correctly.

Pagans also go to a pagan afterlife if I recall right, which goes strongly against most abrahamic narratives.

All in all, at the very least “the abrahamics are right” is only partially correct.

I don’t see why altering things with magic would be any more sinful than say, altering things with mundane knowledge. Is a smith performing a sin of hubris for taking an ore and changing it into a horseshoe?

The tricky thing is Dominion auras "canceling out" Hermetic magic. Not so with holy magic admittedly, but despite RoP: The Divine shrugging it's shoulders at whether this means Hermetic magic is sinful, it sure sounds like it. Temporarily altering Essential Nature might not be inherently sinful, but the way Hermetic magi go about it definitely is, at least in the sense that they aren't jumping through the right hoops. Plus, the only real downside of holy magic is that you do need to jump through the right hoops, do that and you can work in Dominion-saturated places all you like. Hermetic mages literally just don't want to give up whatever sins they happen to be committing, seemingly.

I'd love if there was a little more disconnect between the Divine Realm and God himself, making it more like "a realm of God worshippers" rather than "angels are literally God's hand", but the core book is pretty explicit when it says "The Divine realm is the manifestation of the supernatural power of God".

Again, if it were possible to assume a more "impersonal, incomprehensible" Deist God, I guess you could argue that Hermetic mages not jumping through the right hoops is just a matter of metaphysical rules no one understands, but the setting really implies a sentient, personal God that's almost personally badmouthing you for committing whatever the local monotheistic religion considers sin. Sins like idolatry, which the Divine sourcebook specifically brings up as one of the issues with Hermetic magic.

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Dominion auras do not “cancel out” Hermetic magic. They impose a penalty on the roll and add some extra botch dice. Both of those are remedied by using formulaic spells with Spell Mastery. It’s a bit of a nuisance but is at last a place for a Flambeau magus with Mastery 7 [i]pilum of fire[/i] to feel like he’s accomplished something, blazing away in the middle of a church service.

There’s an assumption that the Divine trumps other Realms, but in most cases you’re just dealing with the Realm interactions.

Dominion auras do not “cancel out” Hermetic magic.

What would you call it? They make it particularly hard to use, an increasing penalty based on how "holy" the site is and make anyone with The Gift feel like shit the moment they walk in. I don't really care how hard the mechanical penalty is, the point is that on some level God Himself is bearing down on Hermetic magi in these places.

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Dominion vs. Magic ?

Divine auras' negative effect on Magic is certainly a worrying sign, but - magic is definitely NOT Infernal. Even Sense Holiness and Unholiness, a Divine ability, would agree with that. As would angels, presumably.

And, as I said above, I for one think it's perfectly reasonable to be a pagan or gnostic in the setting. To such magi, the idea that the Dominion opposes Magic won't mean much.

A Distant God ?

I too would like God to be more distant - and for angels to be more uncertain of His desires. But on the plus side RoP:tD does say angels "are not privy to the secret knowledge of God, and do not know the future or anything they have not experienced or sensed" and that "Because of its transcendence, the truth of the Divine realm can never be known, not even by the mightiest of angels".

I choose to draw mainly on this idea, and to minimize God's direct intervention to essentially none. So that we would indeed have, as you say, an incorprehensible god and metaphysical rules no one understands. Angels are less God's hand, and more limited beings following incomprehnsible rules.

It is simply not known why God would choose to allow and accept Magic as unsinful yet suppress it within the Dominion - just like it is unclear why, say, devout holy men can call upon the Divine in war against each other. Even the greatest angels don't know. It's just the way things are.

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But on the plus side RoP:tD does say angels "are not privy to the secret knowledge of God, and do not know the future or anything they have not experienced or sensed" and that "Because of its transcendence, the truth of the Divine realm can never be known, not even by the mightiest of angels"

Yeah, this (and the Limit of the Divine being, well... limited) are possibly the saving grace for me.

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Gluttony is bad, however, sugar tastes good. Resisting the temptation to overeat is hard for a wealthy person, but they should do the challening thing, so as not to commit a sin. Something being difficult does not make it bad.

The Ars Majica world is using the premise that what people believed in the middle ages is true. Thing is, at least for an atheist like me, the miracles spoken of, can all have logical explanations.

God has to be distant, because if he gets close and intervenes, he’s not the god of the middle ages. Just because God is real in Ars Majica, he is not the all powerful, all knowing, all loving idealised God. He is the god that does nothing while the black death happens. I know, a bit further on in time, but it makes the point.

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I suppose a major component of this, too, is what Hermetic Magic is really DOING to the world, what it IS fundamentaly– which, if that blog post about Meinong’s Jungle has anything to say about it, is really quite complicated. (Are there books that try to get into that? I've seen "spheres" mentioned but have no idea where that's coming from, for instance).

I imagine that upon learning Hermetic Magic isn't related to the Infernal, some priests of Mythic Europe would object to it being called magic at all (because that might make traffic with demons seem less dangerous). From what I understand, around 1220 the idea of "occult natural forces" was developing. Mythic Europe seems to push a little further forward in time than expected when it comes to philosophy, so let's just pretend that this idea was broadly recognized by intelligent priests, and that they would distinghish these forces from the unnatural, god-defying "magic" of demons. The Order of Hermes, meanwhile, has a very different paradigm of what "magic" is because they don't really see the Infernal as anything special, just different and particularly dangerous.

I could see a tactful magi convincing a priest that they merely study and apply occult forces, nothing seriously untoward, even if the great power of these forces is a great temptation towards sin.

...But I could see theologically inclined magi arguing that certain Techniques (Muto and possibly Creo) are sketchier than the others.

In Muto's case, you are pretty inarguably puting an object into the phenomenal, mundane world which was never supposed to be there. It presumably exists in the Magic Realm (whatever it is theologically) but was never meant to exist within the mundane– so the world "heals itself" by removing the offending object. How any given person feels about this probably boils down to whether they jive with the mystical idea that humans are a "part of god" and that trying to "ascend" is a good thing.

Creo is an interesting one, because from what I understand, without requisites you can only produce things that could conceivably exist in the mundane world naturally, right? No living parrot made out of metal, as that blog post says. And it's explicitly stated that magi are mixed on what's going on with the Limit of Creation. So it might be less "creative blasphemy against God's blueprints" than Muto depending on how someone conceptualizes it IMO.

I see the realm interactions as telling us that Magic is foreign to the Divine, not opposed to it. The penalty affects magical creatures not possessing free will, and hence incapable of sin, suggesting it's not a moral issue.

Hermetic magic could still be sinful anyway, of course. I think ArM explicitly calls this out as “troupe’s choice”.

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Maybe another way of looking at it is that everyone is weaker than God, but being weaker than God is not sinful, it’s just the natural order of the universe. The Divine Aura is metaphysically ‘louder’ than the others; magi and faeries (and demons) are metaphysically sensitive, so they have a stronger reaction than mundane people – they feel weird in a strong Divine Aura and it drowns out their own ‘sound’.