The Eagle has landed

Salvete, Sodales!

There are ideas in the book, which can perhaps be compared to the small saga ideas in GotF (e.g. the plotting of an infernal magus to corrupt the tribunal, or the unstable setting in Constantinople), but I couldn't make out a more detailed plotline like "Curse of the Rhine Gorge".

Vale,
Alexios ex Miscellanea

This issue is resolved in Realms of Power: Magic. The titans are the kosmokrators; primal spirits that govern the universe; the massive intelligences of medieval thought who uncaringly enact the will of God in ordering the natural forces. You'll probably never see stats for them in ArM5; the aforementioned book puts their Magic Might at 50-75. There is a more about the titans (as opposed to the other kosmokrators) in The Sundered Eagle.

Mark

IIRC this is just one of the options. I favor the opinion that they enact their own will, not God's :slight_smile: At any rate, I think of them as (somewhat anthropomorphized) Aristotelian-Forms, the basic Ideas that shape what can be.

So - any covenant worth its salt can, like, Penetrate and totally dominate one, you know.

Man, I hate how the ArM5 Might/MR scale fails to work with the Penetration/Magic rules. :sigh:

What answer was the one you were hoping for?

You want higher might for the Kosmokrators?
Or you want prepared magi to be ineffectual with the rules as written when dealing with them? - and that assumes the Arcane Connections to them are not problematic to obtain.

What's your ideal solution?

My ideal solution is a more properly balanced 6th edition :smiley:

I want prepared magi to be ineffectual against them unless they are archmagi and/or have McGuffins. I don't want a covenant of six magi barely out of apprenticeship to be able to easily summon the most powerful beings of Magical into a binding circle and drain their power, killing them permanently. The difficulty of obtaining an Arcane Connection isn't enough, it has to take much, much more - it has to take enormous Power, raw power, and be very risky, even for archmagi. Otherwise, the Mighty beings of Magic - well, they are just not Mighty.

At least the Titans as-magical-beings are protected by the Twilight Void. If it wasn't for this hindrance, magi would be binding and might-stripping them all over.

But all of this is besides the point of the thread - TSE is bound by ArM5 guidelines and operates within them. And it looks grand.

Finding the True Name of a Titan, isn't that a decent McGuffin?

And what other AC would you expect to have for it?

Besides, they're Daimons - you'll kill that avatar at the most.

Beyond the issue of magic might and penetration, I'd like to see Titans with powers that fit legend and their in-game title of kosmocrators.

Power scales should be made more consistent. One extra magnitude of Hermetic Magic means ten times the quantity. Five more points of Might usually seems to mean just five more points.

A True Name is arguably too simple and definitely too binary. You need a TN just to contact the Titan and have it laugh at your petty hubris. I could imagine other ACs to it, such as an ancient statue of the deity. And I would definitely want more McGuffins, such as its Synthemata, or perhaps Sympathetic Connections like the astrological date it is aligned with... and plenty of raw vis, of course, plenty of raw vis.

Unless you meet him in the Twilight Void :imp:

Yes, the Twilight Void protects the daimons. The Lunar Sphere protects the archangels. Faeries have no protection per se, but a new faerie can pop in and pick up the role and no one would be the wiser. The only ones that are truly vulnerable are those poor demons - the big demons better guard their True Names very well, lest some over-zealous Hermetic magus start summoning and might-stripping them. The problem is not that the PCs can really kill Gabriel or Death, but rather that they can face the strongest supernatural beings with ease - the scale is not right, it doesn't work well.

It's just a rant, forget I said anything - this discussion doesn't belong in this thread.

I have a question. How can a middle ages Magus strip a Titan of its magic? How does that even work?
I mean, in most rpgs you can create characters that know one thing very well, and nothing else. A character with every point of xp and every virtue thrown into the Goetic Arts could summon and exploit powerful entities. But a character like that wouldn't be very interesting, would it?
But are there other ways of binding and controlling a, say, Might 75 daimon?

-E.

I change things so that the "True Name" you might find in a grimoire just gives you a +1 connection. The really secret name for the being, which gives Synthemata grade connections, is much more secret. That way magi can summon beings that they can't necessarily dominate.

In practice, he can't.

But how about stripping a Might 50 dragon - a being that is supposed to be, by the guidelines set forth in the ArM5 line and RoP:M, the most powerful being of Magic outside the Magic Realm? Easy. He could do it for a Might 75 dragon or ghost or whatever too, if such exist. Of any Realm of Power. Just pile in a Wizard's Communion, throw in some raw vis perhaps, and any starting covenant can do this. With some preparation (sympathetic connections and whatnot), any single magus reasonably combat-directed magus could do this.

Daimons specifically are protected from all of this by several means. First, you don't have a way to reach them without learning their True Name. Even then, it is at least implied by the rules of TMRE that the only way to reach them from the mundane world is through a ritual of Hermetic Theurgy; so you need to pick up that Mystery and invent the ritual, or else find this ReVi Ritual spell in someone's lab notes. Then you will need to Penetrate the spirit's MR - but that's not really difficult, with a reasonable ReVi casting total, some raw vis, a decent Penetration ability, and a wizard's communion. The problem is that even after all of this you only summon an "aspect" of it, so you can't really harm the daimon itself. To affect the daimon itself you would have to go to the Twilight Void and cast the binding/stripping spell at Voice range or something - which is essentially impossible.

Other "powerful entities" are not so well-protected. You can use ReVi magic to summon any Divine creature that doesn't dwell beyond the Lunar Sphere, an Infernal demon or ghost, or a Faerie. You can then use PeVi Might-stripping spells to end their lives permanently. Or bind and command him with ReVi spells. No Goetic Arts required. Arcane connections would be required for summoning, but can generally be obtained, for any creature. Hermetic magi are powerful enough so that a magus that devotes considerable time to this method of operation can do it rather well. With the aid of his fellow magi, he can probably do it to just about any creature, sand those beyond the Lunar Sphere or Daimons. And he would still be flexible enough and have enough XP and time to learn other things to do with his magic - probably lots of Rego and Vim things, but still, there is great versatility there.

As for a middle ages magus - well, that's not what Ars Magica is about. Hermetic magi are way more powerful and versatile than that. If you want to play a middle-ages wizard, I think the Learned Magician from Hedge Magic is more appropriate.

Well, I'm happy to say that we've never had this problem in our campaigns, so the power balance really doesn't bother me personally. :slight_smile:

E.

Cool. That's much more important than my largely-theoretical musings on power level.

One of the things I really like about Ars Magica is that "everything's possible". Magi should muse about power, but to actually do stuff like the examples that have come up here, that's another matter. Of course, if you have a Might 50 dragon, entirely passive, not resisting, Magi can do a lot of damage to it. But dragons especially, are the masters of the "offense is the best defense"-theory. A covenant gathering ACs in the neigbourhood won't go unschorched for long. :slight_smile:

E.

If you are thinking of me, you once again compleatly misguess my thinking :smiley:

Have I known you for years? :wink: No, not you mate!

Say, to take the thread back on track, have anyone else got Sundered Eagle yet? I'm curious as to where one can buy it.. Amazon seems to be out of stock still.. :unamused:

-E.

I have ordered it in my local bookstore but still no confirmation it has landed :wink:.

In Brussels, at Dedale for those who are interested.

Mine arrieved yesterday

I've got it on order from them... No idea when I'll see it. :cry:

Chris