Echoed from Oz...
Q: do these Neo-Mercurians use rituals simialr to the ones presented in HoH:TL Guernicus or are they more "what Mercurians would be if they were Hermetic magi" ie. uber-cooperative ritual specialists?
Thanks,
Jarkman
Not without reworking the mechanics nearly completely.
I haven't read the dream magic chapter yet but everything else in the book is pretty tightly welded to the techniques and forms. Divination really only needs a few tweaks to be translated into non hermetic magic and I imagine that some of the other abilities could be reworked as well, but as it stands, this is a book about hermetic magic.
On the Hedgie / Exotic front, David has said that we shouldn't actually expect too many, if any, new traditions in the RoP: Magic book next summer. I'm going to guess that the fifth edition hedge magic book will be slipped into the spring spot in 2008 when there won't be a House book to publish. (But I've got no special sources of information to make my guess any more informed than any one else's).
the last, though whether you'd call any magus "uber-cooperative" is another matter...
Does the Divination chapter includes anything else of substance apart from the spoiler Caribet did ?
That's pretty clear. What I wish to know in addition is whether Hermetic Divination works like the old Mysteries Augury virtue did; i.e. magus has the choice of spont-like quick divination for an immediate response (e.g. tossing some bones or dice, looking out for birds, quick glance into flames or in a pool), ceremonial-magic-like protracted divination (e.g. elaborate ceremony to sacrifice an animal and looking out the viscera, scrying into the fire for a whole hour) for a more powerful and accurate result.
That's a pretty reasonable assumption IMO, since Winter, Spring and Summer slots are already taken by magical stuff (Ancient Magic, HOH:S, and RoP:M) even if RoP:M is also useful for companions, so it's likely the last slot goes to something mundane like City and Guild.
I would have called those the fall winter and spring slots.
Based on the schedule of the last year and half, that's what I expect
City and Guild (October-November): Fall 2006
Ancient Magic (January-February): Winter 2006-07
Houses of Hermes: Societates (April-May): Spring 2007
Realms of Power: Magic (July-August): Summer 2007
Well, I just picked up my books at my FLGS ([color=red]YAY!) and, naturally, rushed to read this section. This is very interesting... Hermetic MLM.
You know, that reminds me a bit of that character I once played in Mage, a caricatural Discordian Televangelist, heavily piling up on virtues that increased charisma and social skills (-2 to difficulty and 2 automatic successes, hell yeah!), with magic on top of that. Playing the "Blessed One" was quite a lot of fun. 
I'll talk to you guys later, I've got lots of reading to do. 
Cool, congratulations. Keep us posted on your progress! 
Yes: it was actually inspired by one of my players constant hermetic get rich quick schemes, and is a cult which will not fit all sagas... I wrote it for the sheer fun of it, as the sort of thing players might develop, and to show not all cults have fixed initatory schemes...
The other one I really let myself go in is the Volshebni Mechatelli (sp?), who I wrote in a frenzied night session after awaking from an odd dream. Neil had suggested dream magic, and then we changed the virtues to fit the cult description...
cj x
Now read your words again, now that you have seen the Children of Hermes Fruny. Join up -- you are a natural!
cj x
I'll be glad to have you as my Guardian of the Faith. I've just finished writing a delightful Terram summa which I am happy to send you as a token of my esteem for you and my love of the Blessed One.
Great minds think alike, it would seem. 
So, are we done with the mysteries overview ?
One major Virtue (Hermetic Divination) allowing the power and one method of augury, and minor ones providing for additional methods for augury/divination mysteries.
Two virtues (Dream Magic and Greater Dream Magic) for the dream mysteries.
The Dream Interpretation Ability
The Art of Memory Ability.
Is that all ?
No, there's more than that, like Spell Binding (bind a spirit to maintain a spell forever, or until the vessel is broken), Performance Magic (beware the magus with "Sorcerous Carouse"), a bunch of Alchemy-related virtues, a bunch of Astrology-related virtues, improved talismans, Theurgy, Hermetic Architecture... There's a lot of stuff in there, and I've just begun reading, but so far it really looks nice. Plenty of ways to have flavorful magic that is different from your neighbour's.
The Neo-Mercurians' Hermetic Sacrifice could be adapted to work for Diedne magi, as an alternative to Chthonic Magic...
And as was alluded to before, it also looks more coherent mechanically.
For pre-existing Sagas, there is a 1-page appendix with conversion guidelines from the 4th edition Mysteries. Another appendix details the consequences of immortality, and how characters can progress -- slowly and with difficulty, but at least they have plenty of time for it...
One last appendix gives example daimons (look, Pukis is back!).
Now I'll go back to my reading...
Sorry I was assuming you had followed the thread from the star, I meant about the mysteries who hadn't been spoiled by Erik.
Hmm, is this the Spirit-magic virtue, Hermetic Empowerment (sp ?) or something different ?
Oh my, so the Hermetic Bard is back 
What kind of mystery is this ? It doesn't seem to fit in any of the groups we have heard of.
These we have already heard about, somehow, but any crunchy morsel or juicy comment you feel like throwing in our direction will be more than welcome.
Care to explain differences and similarities, just a bit ? I've a planned character that might use either virtue.
Not for me to smug Niel' s and cj's work, quite the opposite, I'm persuaded they did an excellent work, but it wasn't difficult to do something better than old mysteries and its "in doubt, throw a gazillion affinities at players".
I'm extremely curious to see how such general rules fit with specific rules for mysteries like Becoming.
In consideration of this, my personality flaws are currently wavering between Envy, Greed, Lust, and Wrath. 
Hermetic Empowerement allows you to invest Rituals in a device, consuming a bound spirit Might Score (not Points!). Spell Binding lets you bind a spirit into an object via a Ritual, then cast a spell that the spirit will sustain, essentially creating a constant-effect device.
Guidelines for summoning and controlling spirits are also listed.
There are a few virtues at the beginning of the book (in the "Curious Common Magics" chapter) which aren't explicitely attached to any flavor of Mystery.
Hermetic Geometry has some nifty (geometry-related, duh) R/D/T: you can cast a spell beyond Sight range, without an arcane connection if you can calculate precisely where the effect should happen. Now, you'll think twice before letting people in your sanctum, especially if they're carrying surveying equipment. 
Chthonic Magic is a sacrifice that gives you a power boost for your spells, Hermetic Sacrifice lets you substitute sacrifices for vis when summoning "pagan deities" at their altar. In my opinion, it might work too for "worshipful" Diedne.
Well, it's not just that, the old Mysteries included radically new game mechanisms (e.g. the rules for Automata), and from one chapter to the next, things were completely different. Here it is still recognizably Ars Magica 5th edition throughout, even though it is introducing new stuff for magi to do.
It's pretty consistent: immortals are unchanging. Wounds, aging are both changes that immortality "repairs", but so is learning. Only magic can bring lasting changes, so it takes magic (and vis) to make things you learn "stick" -- having a talisman is a very good thing; having an Inscription upon the Soul is even better, since it cannot be stolen from you. Not all routes to immortality are created equal. A magus who Ascended to the Hall of Heroes is in a very (very!) different situation from a Living Ghost or a freshly-minted Faerie.
In all cases, becoming immortal isn't something you should undertake until you feel you really are ready for it. Munchkins are well-advised to look twice before they jump.
If that makes you feel etter, I braved the afternoon [color=firebrick]HEAT to walk 
to the store downtown and back. That counts as a Major Ordeal and I do thus deserve my newfound knowledge.
It looks like the Lesser Elixir is something that every magus would want, letting you get extra mileage (increased bonus) out of your longevity potion without having to redesign it from scratch. That section highlights the fact that the amount of vis required for a longevity potion increases with age and is capped by the 2x Magic Theory to vis in lab activities (while rebrewing an existing formula uses the higher limit used for Ritual spells).
So unless you got a very good longevity potion brewed for you when you're young, you may find yourself unable to design a fresh one of yourself and end up having to seek the Elixir... That makes sense.
It also ties in neatly (by design) with Vulgar Alchemy, which lets you research new Shape and Form bonuses through experimentation, giving it a particularly suitable alchemic flavour.
Good job, Neil & C.J. I like that one a lot.
Archmagushood as a Mystery Initiation.
Reading over the initiation script guidelines, it occurs to me that the conditions of achieving the rank of Archmagus is eerily similar to an initiation script.
Have invented a 7th magnitude spell: Sacrifice of time +1Be famous for some deed: Quest +3Defeat an archmagus at his own challenge: Quest +3Sacrifice of time on the part of the challenged archmagus, combined with the fact that an archmagus can only be challenged a finite number of times, might rate another +3.
If you take Order of Hermes Lore as the appropriate Mystery Cult Lore, that's easily enough to initiate at least a minor virtue (on top of the status and recognition of being an archmage).
Who knows what really happens in those archmage councils... 
Opposite but similar ways to a similar effect. Noce to see that a way to healing potions is back. I assume both of these are minor virtues from the spirit-magic chapter.
Performance Magic, Potent Magic, Art of Memory (which is a mundane ability, IIRC), what else ??
I understood this one as being able to cast at the equivalent of Sight, but to use any sense if you could the distance correctly. Very nifty.
By the way, is it true that the old ability to create an arcane connection by horoscope isn't back ? What is your impression about Celestial Magic: from what I heard it is a very usueful all-purpose ability. How are those horoscope spell and lab bonuses and those Astrological durations ?
Both nice but complementary abilities to represent the traditional magical power boost from a sacrifice. However, if I understand them correctly, Chtonic has also so much more bang for your buck, I heard, (at the cost of getting a rather bad reputation, but such is the price of expertise in the dark aspects of magic) such as infernally-themed R/D/Ts (how are they ?) and attunement of your magic to infernal auras (like Faerie and Holy Magic) which may be very useful when fighting diabolists. As it concerns Hermetic Sacrifice, it is nice for vis-poor covenants to see that a form of vis substitute for rituals is back, since you can use horoscopes for that no more, isn't it ? Taking both might indeed in theme for a pagan magus. I take Hermetic sacrifice comes from Neo-Mercurian mysteries. Do they have other tricks of possible interest to a pagan Diedne ??
A rather pleasant way to deal with the situation, IMO: both balanced and thematic. Far better to have the option than to have the Limit of Aging as an absolute thing. What is your preferred method ? From what I've heard, I'm wavering between Great Elixir (how similar is it to a magical version of Becoming ? is it in stages, too ?), Becoming, and Living Ghost.
Well, having a talisman is very good to any mage, and twice so if it is a Consummate Talisman, and thrice if it happens to be Inscribed upon the Soul, but why are these things even more good for immortals ?
Very true, but you can always seek the lesser Elixir as an alternative. How good is the bonus it bestows ? I've always deemed the 2xMT vis limit far too restrictive, and in need of being increased to 3xMT for other lab activities, and removed entirely for longevity rituals. IMO the urge to seek alternative immortality methods should come from the need to avoid warping accumulation, not from hitting a wall of efficacy for vanilla longevity. IMO Final Twilight or violent death, not old age, should be the typical and expected ways of demise for the average magus.
As a matter of fact, I am eerily imppressed by the way the whole process of hermetic apprenticeship looks similar to a stretched-out Mystery Initation (giving the virtue Hermetic Magic) and how it would elegantly solve some nagging problems of the ArM background (such as the Founders being drafted into Bonisagus' system).
Not quite similar. One essentially creates charged items that cast Ritual spells, the other is a quick way to create constant-effect devices for a spell you can cast. Spell Binding is a minor virtue in Curious Common Magics, Hermetic Empowerment is minor Spirit Magic.
Spell Binding, Planetary Magic (compute an Horoscope to get a lab bonus for enchanting) and Vulgar Alchemy (research new shape & form bonuses), Withstand Casting (reduced fatigue) and its opposite, Vulnerable Casting. An astrological variation of Cyclic Magic which allows for unbalanced cycles, and (essentially) Cyclic Virtues/Flaws.
Correct. Celestial Magic seems to help further than "regular" horoscopes do (they've been rolled in the core rules), but they won't give you an arcane connection if you don't have one already.
I'll let you know when I've read further.
Chthonic is also a major virtue, while Hermetic Sacrifice is a minor one.
See, I'm one of those who think that the Dark Secret that comes with Diedne Magic isn't an automatic death sentence. Though it'll certainly cause you to be the target of some virulent Wizard Wars, it isn't by itself a reason for a March.
Chthonic Magic, even if it isn't by itself Infernal, is a tougher problem, since all your magic will register as Infernal to those who can detect such things. Expect to end up at the business end of a Will of Alatheia Guernicus Ritual rather sooner than later.
Crossroads (R) is an upgrade on Road, nice but not earth-shattering, Cursed (D) is a variant of Until, Forsaken (D) is the mirror-image of Grace, and the duration of choice for the discriminating diabolist, ensuring you stay damned (hmmm, healing spells with Forsaken duration...). Passion (T) is a selective target filter for which I don't see much application beyond infernal work (unless, I guess, you want to put to sleep a groupful of people susceptible to anger from within a crowd).
Yup, that's handy, especially since it enables you to safely handle infernally-tainted vis.
There's a new spell mastery option, Apotropaic Mastery, (unrelated to Chthonic Magic), which provides substantial benefits to the dedicated demon-hunter, though it doesn't help against mere diabolists.
If you want vis, I suggest you go defile consecrated items and other relics. It's so easy. 
While astrology can help you create charged items without a lab text, alchemy is the mystery to turn to if you're looking for vis. Not only can you extract other Forms than Vim, but you can extract Vis while doing other things in your lab, or even directly turn it into a pre-opened device immediately ready for enchantment.
Now, a mix of Spirit Magic and Theurgy is probably appropriate to create a pagan-themed magus, but as I said before, Chthonic Magic definitely sets a different tune.
Correct. And not really, though, for those who think that Mercurian Magic doesn't deserve to be a major virtue, Mercurians get Road and Road Network Ranges and Targets for free (as soon as someone teaches it to you).
Depends on the answers I'll get in my threads about Talismans and Immortal Magi. So far, Twilight as a Great Beast, Becoming and Ascendancy to the Hall of Heroes seem to be the least limiting options - along with the Threshold of Repose on both the Path of the Body and the Path of Walking Backwards. Sure, a Great Beast generally flees into the wild and can't really function "normally", but I didn't read anything about them being barred from further learning either (did I miss it?).
Not so much "even more good" as indispensable since any new learning by an immortal must to get fixed as an enchantment in their Talisman if it is not to be forgotten.
It's pretty easy to get a +3 bonus, beyond that, it depends on your dedication to Alchemy. With the 2xMT limit, it is a meaningful extension of Longevity Rituals.
If it were only for the core rules, I would agree with you. However, given that there are ways to stretch that limit (including alchemy, since the pre-opened enchantments spaces can either count as a reduction of the opening cost, or as additional spaces beyond the normal limit), I am starting to think that 2xMT may be fine for plain, unaugmented Hermetic Magic.
I think that the idea that you have run out of time and that you need to seek alternative options to be interesting. At any rate, freshly-gauntleted magi would probably be advised by their parentes to seek the services of a talented Longevity Potion expert, no matter what the cost. That or get a crash course in Magic Theory, one point for every 10 years of age. Hurry up, the clock is ticking.
I don't really think there's such a big hole there. Since the Founders's abilities were ithe basis for Bonisagus's theory, they counted as Favored Abilities and as such didn't hinder their learning. They provided both "guaranteed insight", to use 4th edition terminology, and something of the new theory that the freshly initiated Founders already knew, making it easier on them to learn the rest.
But yes, it can be treated as a Mystery Initiation.