Tranquillina Bonisagi, filia Maximianus

If it's just me... I'm going to say nay. You can build a consensus on this that favors you, but basically it boils down to not feeling right.
Putting it another way, sometimes, the researcher has to turn convention on its head. Yes, of course, there would be no, or at least little, reason to invent spells you suggested with a Group target. But sometimes that's the only way you can find that illusive element...

I understand but to merge it into the OR rules where you are #1 trying to get a breakthrough and #2 needing to stabilize the breakthrough are much different. Since each spell can only lead to one discovery (HoH:TL pg 28 ) you are better off with what I'm proposing. That is perform 2 experiments with 2 stress die rolls with 2 chances for discovery. When you stabilize you would just stabilize one of the spells. If by the odd occurrence you got N discoveries for N stress die rolls you might be able to stabilize them all in one shot.

It just allows an accomplished magus to do a lot of experiments in hopes of finding one thing interesting.

Okay, I think you've both convinced me that each spell should be its own separate opportunity for a discovery. So the researcher chooses between an artificially inflated spell (which, as Jonathan points out, maybe is a reasonable tactic for discovering something new) or multple, independent spells, each of which has its own chance for a discovery. Two little points remain, both having to do with the latter option:

  • Should we overrule the rule on ArM5 page 102, about one Extraordinary Results roll applying to all spells, in the case of original research? If each one has a chance to yield a discovery, seems like we should be rolling separately for each.
  • We might as well decide, just in case two spells yield discoveries in the same season: one season per spell to stabilize? or one season overall - a more exact recreation of the experimentation? Again there are opposing incentives - speed vs. Warping/Twilight; I'm just trying to pin down what's possible.

And one other thing (sorry, not trying to be nitpicky here!): Jonathan, I made one last comment on the simple-die-during-research question. Just wondering if that affected your judgment on the issue.

I don't have a problem with rolling separately for each spell. Just need to note what that roll is for stabilization later. And as far as stabilizing, that's one per season, no matter what. You're following a specific line of research, and if you go chasing two rabbits, you'll lose them both. This line may lead to your breakthrough, or not, and you go back to the beginning and start with your next best alternative...

I just think that the simple die roll here is superfluous at best, and confusing at worst. In short, this isn't about the magus trying to squeeze a little bit more magic out of whatever they're working on, it's about trying to understand magic. As a player/character, I might experiment if I'm 3 or 4 points from doing something in a season, and I hope to get a bit more "juice" to get me over the hump. That doesn't at all apply to Original Research, so it really seems to be a no, to me. I don't think you lose anything by this, though.

Korvin is doing one spell at a time because he is inventing spells to examine what is happening before and after LR. For Korvin it is invent the spell then cast it to see if he gets the desired information/results. Tranquillia's seems to be more invent something new to stretch the understanding of what magic can do.

I think one spell WORKS better but rules do not have anything against this as they simple suggest using the existing rules.

Okay, I can work under these conditions :slight_smile:
Not having a simple die during original research makes planning those seasons simpler. Wait, is that a paradox...? :open_mouth:

Okay, I went ahead and committed a season of original research (assuming I did it right - let me know of any objections or required clarifications).

In the summer of 1228, Tranquillina will invent two Creo Corpus spells:

  • Purification of the Lingering Ailments, which makes it much more likely that the target will recover quickly from a disease (CrCo 20; analog of Purification of the Festering Wounds)
  • Bind the Giantess's Wound, an attempt to make the magical first aid easier to study by allowing it to work on a larger target (CrCo 15; as Bind Wound but with +1 magnitude for a Size modifier)

(As always, I put the Lab Total calculation on my character advancement page on the wiki. No simple die included.)

I then made two rolls on the Extraordinary Results chart, one for each spell, hoping for a discovery; I used a risk modifier of +2.

  • Purification of the Lingering Ailments: 7, for "No benefit" - which in this case I think is the same as "No extraordinary effects," since the experimentation wasn't providing any mechanical benefit anyway.
  • Bind the Giantess's Wound: 2, for "No extraordinary effects". The roll of 0 requires a botch check, with 1 + aura 5 + risk modifier 2 + Addled 3* - Lab Safety characteristic 9** = 2 botch dice: no botch.

In neither case was she within 2 points of "Discovery", so she only gets the spells, not a breakthrough (although they're good spells).

  • On page 108 of Covenants, it says "for every two seasons [spent Addled], gain one Warping Point and three extra botch dice". How many extra botch dice should there be if she spends only one season Addled? 2 perhaps? (In this case she turned out fine even with all 3)
    ** Given her bad lab accident when she was 19, Tranquillina is notably obsessed about lab safety!

Edited to add, just for fun: I rolled the 9 phantom botch dice to see how her lab safety saved her. I got phantom botches on dice #4,5 (improbably, I also rolled four 2s and two 1s ... yahtzee?!). Reading from the top of Tranquillina's lab stats, the 4th and 5th safety points come from Servant and Spacious. So let's see: she's in the lab, hopped up on ReMe, she's probably throwing small CrCo effects at her corpse statue. Suddenly her magic gets out of control, and the corpse starts expanding and growing all kinds of extra dead limbs and organs. She screams for Loys, and together they frantically move back delicate equipment and ongoing reactions; the statue falls over and bursts everywhere, but because of the extra space, it just barely avoids hitting anything volatile. Loys says babe, I love ya but I ain't cleaning that up. Tranquillina will be procuring another corpse from ... somewhere ... for her preserved statue.

I'm disliking Addled... I'm tending towards incur all of the penalties immediately, with the second season being a "freebie." Otherwise, there's a tendency to game the system... If that makes any sense. No? Let's try again.
You gain one Warping Point during the first season, but you can continue to do the second season, and receive no additional warping. You automatically get three extra botch dice, for both seasons.

So, let's examine the botch dice... And the Safety issue. I think, that Safety should never reduce the chance of a botch dice to 0. With a +9 safety, it technically could, because the Safety score should subtract from botch dice. So in this case, I think only 1 die is necessary. The calculation of botch dice is as follows: 2 (Risk Modifier) + 3 (Addled) -9=-4 so it becomes 1.

Also, don't forget that it may be advantageous to subtract the die roll, and also not use all of the bonus. This is entirely up to the player at the time they make the roll for the discovery. It becomes locked in on subsequent rolls to stabilize the discovery.

Edit: Overtime might be a better choice, generally.

I wouldn't term it "gaming the system", but rather trying to figure out what they could have meant when phrasing the consequences two seasons at a time (an annoying choice in hindsight). Anyway, 3 botch dice in every Addled season seems like a reasonable interpretation.
You know, since I'm keeping track of half-xp with my Affinities anyway, would it make sense for me to just take 0.5 Warping points every Addled season, so that there's no "gaming" involved with choosing how many seasons per year to be Addled?

I have to congratulate the Jonathan.Link.Simulator in my head - it successfully predicted the proposal to restrict Safety from removing the last botch die! :laughing: :mrgreen: I'm okay with that. Really I didn't expect her lab's Safety to be that damn high - go go gadget Refinement.
Also, it's (obscure) RAW that a magic aura adds botch dice in lab experimentation situations, even though it doesn't to spellcasting ... lessee ... ArM5 page 108, last sentence of Extraordinary Results.

This is something addressed in the errata, with a helpful (to me at least) clarifying example.
So if I want a discovery and I'm using a +2 risk modifier, then I think I want my stress die to come up between 6 and 10. With the mandatory +2 that turns into between 8 and 12; then with my optional add-or-subtract-up-to-2 I can make it 10 for Discovery. (Except, I guess a 6 on the stress die yields 8: complete failure, which would rule out a discovery?)

I agree - because you used the word "might" :smiley:
Tranquillina is obsessed with her health (as well as safety), so would much prefer to irradiate herself with a mastered formulaic spell and be Addled than to feel the effects of fatigue, isolation, and sleep deprivation (reflected in the Living Conditions penalty).

I'm continuing the discussion that ended here about some spells that Tranquillina can invent/experiment on as part of her original research. Recall that the overall goal of her research is to establish spell guidelines that provide for Living Conditions modifiers (ReCo spells that mimic the effect of a regimen under a trained physician, as per A&A pages 58-59). I'll be listing some proposed spells that she could invent that would further this goal (if she rolls appropriate "Discoveries" on the experimentation chart).

The first list consists of "craft magic" versions of chirurgical procedures - spells that are explicitly described in RAW (see A&A pages 60-61). The only judgment required by us is the confirmation that these Chirurgy-related spells would still be appropriate to investigate for discoveries related to her ultimate Medicine-related goal. (Side note: while I don't think RAW requires a maga inventing or casting these spells to know any Chirurgy, I do plan on having Tranquillina learn a little bit of Chirurgy - up to a score of 2, perhaps, depending on the Quality of whatever Chirurgy summa she can find.)

Blood without Sweat or Tears
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
ReCo 10 (Base 5, +1 Touch)
This spell opens a vein in the target and causes a modest amount of blood to be expelled, mimicking a chirurgeon's phlebotomy to expel bad or excess humors. The blood-letting requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 6 to succeed. If the spell is successful, the target loses a Fatigue level.

The Chirurgeon's Golden Touch
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
ReCo 10 (Base 5, +1 Touch)
This spell causes the target's skin to react as if strong heat had been been applied by a golden instrument from a chirurgeon's kit, stopping lesions or blood from spreading or invigorating cold tissues or trapped humors. The cautery requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 7 to succeed. If the spell is successful, the target loses a Fatigue level.

Thy Cup Boileth Over
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
ReCo 10 (Base 5, +1 Touch)
This spell causes the target's skin to react as if it had been touched by a metal cup boiled in water, stimulating the production of moist humors. The cupping requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 7 to succeed. If the spell is successful, the target loses a Fatigue level.

A Tooth for a Tooth
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
ReCo 15 (Base 10, +1 Touch)
This spell removes the touched tooth (carious or healthy) from the target's mouth. The tooth-pulling requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 9 to succeed. If the spell is successful, the target suffers a Light Wound.

Needed Like a Hole in the Head
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
ReCo 15 (Base 10, +1 Touch)
This spell creates a hole in the target's skull, allowing the drainage of excess sensitive faculty to mitigate delirium or hallucinations. The trepanation requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 15 to succeed. If the spell is successful, the target suffers a Light Wound.

Rebuke the Sign of the Crab
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Part
ReCo 25 (Base 15, +1 Touch, +1 Part)
This spell removes from the target a tumor formed from the mutual coagulation of melancholic with another humor. In addition to a patient who actually has a tumor, the tumorectomy requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 15 (for a hot or cold tumor) or 18 (for a consumptive tumor) to succeed. If the spell is successful, the target suffers a Medium Wound.

[size=85]Edited: changed Intelligence to Perception[/size]

Can i ask the benefit of any of the above spells ( other than the tooth spell)? Also, you should invent a basic spell to see a target's humors so you can check the balance.

HTH. HAND.

Most of what she wants is from pg 58-59 in the prevention of disease part. By raising or lowering out of balance humors. The book has it done by exercise, diet and blood letting. Rather than try to imitate what a chiurgan can do why not try to imitate what the Arabic Elementalist can do with medicine which is to adjust the humors up or down with magic and not diet and exercise.

The end goal is adjusting humors to make the patient healthier. I would agree that the Arabic Elementalist way is more efficient, but (IMO) the spells that imitate what a chirurgeon can do are a good way to start the process: a good way to learn exactly how the humors interact and how they may be adjusted.

If I was the SG I'd advise Gerg to start in exactly that fashion, though I probably wouldn't require Tranquillina to invent all of the above spells before she proceeds to manipulating humors directly.

The end goal is adjusting humors to make the patient healthier. I would agree that the Arabic Elementalist way is more efficient, but (IMO) the spells that imitate what a chirurgeon can do are a good way to start the process: a good way to learn exactly how the humors interact and how they may be adjusted.

If I was the SG I'd advise Gerg to start in exactly that fashion, though I probably wouldn't require Tranquillina to invent all of the above spells before she proceeds to manipulating humors directly.

One OOC reason I'm dreaming up tons of relevant spells: even though the discovery/original research rules allow you to keep inventing the same spell over and over again until you get a discovery ... that doesn't seem fun to me. :smiley: I'd rather try as many different spells as possible, if I can. By the same token, I'm not concerned with efficiency.

I'm not particularly interested in doing this research the way an elementalist would do the research. Yes there'll be some manipulation of humors (and Revealed Flaws of Mortal Flesh should already detect unbalanced humors), and yes eventually it will be magic rather than diet and exercise that does a body good. But my vision at present is for Tranquillina to investigate doing typical Medicine stuff with magic - much more in analogy with craft-magicking Chirurgy than an elementalist tradition. For me, it's not about getting there the fastest; it's about doing what Tranquillina would do.

... the? :question:

Hope That Helps. Have A Nice Day.

too much like Talk To The HAND for my lil brain :blush:

That's how I read it at first, too. But then I realized it made no sense and I was like, huh?

Here is a second list of proposed spells that could fit Tranquillina's original research plan. These spells are all related to things Chirurgy can accomplish. Unlike the first list, though, some of these don't have explicit guidelines spelled out in RAW. I'll make reasonable guesses and put question marks next to them, but I definitely welcome your input.

Chirurgeon's Cleansing
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Group
CrCo 10 (Base 1, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +2 Group)
This spell provides mild protection for a group of up to ten people against their wounds worsening should they exert themselves. Each character's allowed activities while injured (as per ArM5 pages 178-9) are treated as one category better, for the purposes of deciding whether activities require a Recovery Roll to see if their wounds worsen.

A Stitch in Time
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
ReCo 15? (Base 4?, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)
When cast upon a person who has been wounded in the past twenty-four hours, this spell causes the skin near the wounds to partially stitch together, sifting bad humors out of the bloodstream to the surface. The suturing requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 9? to succeed; if it does, the target gains a bonus of half the caster's Finesse score (rounded up) to her subsequent Wound Recovery Roll, as if first aid had been performed upon her by a chirurgeon. Moreover, if the Perception + Finesse roll exceeds 13 for a Light Wound, 15 for a Medium Wound, or 18 for a Heavy Wound, then her allowed activities while injured are treated as one category better for the duration of the spell. (Use the character's most serious wound to determine this higher Ease Factor.) A person cannot benefit from both this spell and a chirurgeon's first aid; only the higher bonus applies.

Nurse's Tender Care
R: Touch, D: Moon, T: Ind
ReCo 20? (Base 4?, +1 Touch, +3 Moon)
When cast upon a wounded person, this spell causes his wounds to cleanse themselves gradually, and also increases his hardiness against irregularities of diet or environment. As a result, he receives a bonus of half the caster's Finesse score (rounded up) to his subsequent Wound Recovery Roll. (Per + Finesse roll required?) The total bonus from this spell and A Stitch in Time cannot exceed the caster's Finesse score. A person cannot benefit from both this spell and a chirurgeon's palliative care; only the higher bonus applies.

The Friendly Blade
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
ReCo 15 (Base 10, +1 Touch)
This spell performs a minor surgical procedure upon a patient who just failed to meet the Stable Ease Factor on her Recovery Roll for a Light Wound. The surgery requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 12 to succeed; if so, the patient's roll is treated as if it were a Stable result after all. Regardless of whether the spell is successful, the patient makes an immediate Aging Roll.

The Kindest Cut
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
ReCo 30 (Base 25, +1 Touch)
This spell performs a life-saving surgical procedure upon a patient who just failed to meet the Stable Ease Factor on his Recovery Roll for any wound, up to and including an Incapacitating Wound. The surgery requires a Perception + Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 12 to succeed; if so, the patient's roll is treated as if it were a Stable result after all (which, in the case of an Incapacitating Wound, means that the wound improves to a Heavy Wound). Regardless of whether the spell is successful, the patient gains a Major Flaw suitable to the injury. (For specific Major Flaws, and for the effect on the patient for wounds less serious than Incapacitating, see A&A page 62.)

The Patient's Succor
R: Touch, D: Diam, T: Ind
CrCo 30? (Base 20?, +1 Touch, +1 Diam)
This spell is a stronger but shorter-lasting version of Blissful Sensations (MoH page 20). While the spell is active, the target ceases to feel any pain not exceeding the pain of a Medium Wound. When the spell duration ends, the pain will gradually return (over the next 30-60 seconds) if the source of the pain still exists. This spell can be used during a surgical intervention so that the patient does not feel pain from the actual surgery (although the aftereffects will still be somewhat painful).

Still and Serene
R: Touch, D: Diam, T: Ind
ReCo 15 (Base 5, +1 Touch, +1 Diam)
This spell holds a patient's body completely motionless, to allow surgery or other painful procedures to be performed upon her without risking an accident caused by her sudden movements. Instructors of etiquette recommend that this spell and subsequent operation be used only upon a consenting person.