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[Jarkman]

@Timothy Ferguson

@denubisx

@Timothy Ferguson

Provencal was the vanilla tribunal for 2nd edition. Sadly, Provence is not actually in it, which makes language grouping as a tool for finding the border a bit problematic.

Yeah, going from sourcebooks provides contradictions. I'm wondering what natural tribunal borders would have evolved to distinguish the location from Normandy and Iberian tribunals

Well, as I recall vaugely from Normandy, it's the covenants, not the landscape, which determine the border. You find a cool site, you put a covenant on it, and the border is just south of your piece of coolness. If there happens to be a river there, then that's cool,

The old fashioned divide of Iberia and France was "Which way does the water flow down the mountain" and I kind of remember that for the Iberian Tribunal...

2nd edition be damned...

It makes sense for the Provencal Tribunal to include Provence and border with Rome at the Alps, NE via Savoy with Greater Alps and then to the north with the SE part of Normandy - Lyons being the NE corner "roughly". From there west to Bordeaux in a vague line makes sense, noting that there are hardly any canon covenants in the south of Normandy and none particularly mentioned in the north from the old Provencal sourcebooks. A bit of spillover into the Val d'Aoste is scenic. It sets up a bit of mundane politicking as background - west of the Rhone is the Duchy of Toulouse, east of the river is the Holy Roman Empire and to an extent the junior branch of the Catalans.

I think the language grouping actually makes sense and provides a good background character - historically the language and troubadours linked this southern region which was very different to northern France and to the German/Italian states of the Holy Roman Empire over the Alps.

The covenants still define the borders, they just happen to fall out like the language...

From a Hermetic perspective, post Schism War in the early 11th century perhaps the dejected Flambeau migrate south and on to Iberia, generating some friction with the established Jerbiton Provencal magi and the convivencia minded Iberian Flambeau who have had time to come to a n understanding with the southern Muslim magi of Andalusia and the Maghreb. The arrival of "French magi" from the North thus begins the proto-crusade to Barbastro and then helps spark the Reconquista. The migrating Flambeau magi have less qualms about staking out claims in the borderlands between Andalusia and/or aiding the mundane Christian kingdoms, culminating in the fall of Toledo in 1085, disrupting the Jerbiton sponsored Toldeo School of translators momentarily before coming to an uneasy agreement. Perhaps the Tytali follow their fiery foes, spreading mischief and strife that culminates in the Albigensian Crusade and the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa in 1212...

Just some ideas,

Lachie

(Edit...)

Found my old post about Burgundy with the various links etc:

Burgundy / Arelat and Tribunal borders

I find the history of Burgundy very confusing and I suspect that I'm not alone in this. From an ArM5 perspective, Normandy includes the Duchy of Burgundy in the north, but the Kingdom of Arles/Arelat in the south seems to be just where the split between the Roman, Greater Alps and Provencal tribunals. I haven't got my copy of SoI at the moment but seem to recall Savoy was part of the Greater Alps Tribunal and for what it's worth ToH: Rome seems to indicate that the Roman Tribunal ends at the b…

It would seem that adding the whole of Lower Burgundy (County and March of Provence, Vienne, Grenoble) to Provencal would make sense as:

1. It's not part of the Greater Alps
2. It's not part of Normandy
3. It's not part of Rome

This actually leaves no Tribunal for Provence to be attached to except Provencal. This only works if there are no covenants in Provence. Therefore:

4. It makes a lot of sense (particularly as Provencal is meant to be the rump of the old Lotharingian Tribunal)

Not exactly QED, but I think you get my point here...