Unbalanced to let Bjornaer magi have familiars?

The script explicitly mentions adding stuff to it to increase the script bonus since as given it includes neither Quest nor Ordeal.
If one can remove the vis part from the script, then I would expect absolutely everyone using the script to do so, since the vis only gives a +1 bonus which is really not worth that amount of vis plus a warping point. But in that case, why even include the vis part in the first place?

Removing a component is difficult (EF 15), so that's probably the main reason why it would be left in by many. Adding components is easier, and makes it possible to achieve the mysteries with only a high score in the cult lore, as opposed to exceptionally high. Therefore, it is reasonable to address adding components, as what a lot of magi would need. A min/max-ed PC, however, will need fewer components, and probably have specialised to be able to make fully custom scripts. The point here is that RAW is quite consistently written not to assume min/max-ing, and need to be read from that perspective.

On top of the inherent difficulty loke mentioned, you can only make one change. If you can only make one change and you need a higher result, then you cannot remove the vis.

If the answer to "is it unbalanced to let Bjornaer have familiars?" is "it depends, because there is this one min/max build you can do to equal or outstrip having a familiar but otherwise no because they're very powerful" then that's very disappointing, mostly because that's boring for familiars to be so strong that everyone will get one and they'll all trend towards the same characteristics and abilities.

From what you more experienced people are saying it seems like part of the issue is that getting stuff out of a familiar is very straightforward but getting the most out of being a Bjornaer is not. The familiar's bonuses can be enjoyed largely passively for the numbers-go-up part of the game, whereas getting the most out of being a Bjornaer involves leveraging your strengths actively and having the SG help you engage with the mystery cult stuff, not only initiation (for the listed stuff and also new scripts without requiring the player to invent them) but the other benefits of being a close-knit family for stories and adventures.

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That's not really what I am saying. The problem is not that players do not know how to min/max a Bjornar, but that they get too much freedom to min/max the familar. When players design their familiar as an extension of the magus, we get a lot of familiars with +3 Int and whatnot. If the familiars are designed as characters to be roleplayed, as RAW encourages, they will generate more story material and smaller lab bonus. That's when Bjornær is not so disadvantaged.

There is, of course, another issue, which is harder to deal with, although some troupes manage very well. If you play Bjornær magi, you need Bjornar stories. If you play stories mainly as disruptions from the labwork, The typical Bjornar is disadvantaged much more than Bonisagus and Verditius lab rats. However, many houses seem outright boring to play unless the stories are tailored to advance their life goals.

So the answer is, «it depends, because there is this one line of play that you can do, where having a min/max-ed familiar is alpha and omega».

Of course, if that's the line you want to play, you are right to be disappointed.

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Ultimately, here is what the problem seems to boil down to: If you allow Bjornaer to have Familiars, then Bjornaer is essentially always the best House, mechanically speaking, to choose if you won't want particular Mysteries from one of the Mystery Cult Houses. Do we really want 67% of magi's players thinking from a mechanical standpoint 'I should have chosen a Bjornaer'?

The main problem. from a "power/best House" perspective, seems to be the combination of familiar and Inner Heartbeast and its powers. Additionally some of the Powers you can add to the Inner Heartbeast by Refinements has a lot of overlap with the powers you can imbue a familiar with, making me think most people will pick one or the other.
So I am thinking of moving the point of no familiar rather than just removing that prohibition.

What do people think about the following as a house rule?:




The Ritual of Twelve Years does not prevent getting a familiar. Instead it it includes a -3 penalty to all types of shapechanging of humans and animals except when done through the Heartbeast, reflecting the general attitude of House Bjornaer towards shapeshifters.

The inwards focus of power needed to initiate the Inner Heartbest is incompatible with the outwards focus used with a familiar. Therefore nobody who currently have a familiar can go through the Inner Heartbeast initation, and once one has obtained the Inner Heartbeast they are forever after unable to bind a familiar.
The loss of familiar replaces the current Major Ordeal for Inner Heartbeast.




Comments:
The penalty to shapechanging is mostly there for flavour, although in some circumstances it can of course be an actual problem.

This change would force a Bjornaer magus to eventually which path to Ultimate Power(tm) they want to follow - the Inner Heartbeast path, or a more standard path for hermetic magi.

We know that some magi Bjornaer are not really interested in the whole ancestor worship thing and instead follow other paths - like the Huntress of the Woods. For them using a familiar would likely be the more comfortable path.

This will also add a bit of tension to House Bjornaer, where those magi who have an Inner Heartbeast will no doubt grouch about those who choose to bind a familiar as "not real Bjornaer." They will generally not be allowed to tell the magi with familiars why it is a bad idea though - you are not supposed to even find out that it is possible to initiate into the Inner Heartbeast until you have a score in House Bjornaer Lore of at least 5. There will no doubt be vague warnings given to young magi Bjornaer that they should avoid binding a familiar - warnings which will no doubt be ignored by many of the same young magi.

It will also add a minor bit of story potential for those characters who bind a familiar and then afterwards find about the Inner Heartbeast. Keeping the familiar, or severing the ties to the familiar and delve deeper into the Bjornaer mysteries? While characters may be surprised by this, players will of course know about the choice well in advance and can plan accordingly.

Overall this should not make a Bjornaer magus significantly more powerful, but it will give players a bit more choice in how to develop their Bjornaer magus.

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Actually, I find this to be specifically a buff to the Bjornaer, as giving up the right to a familiar (which they had not had access to in the past) in exchange for the inner heartbeast is a non-ordeal.

This wouldn't do much, it would only even vaguely affect MuCoAn mages...

I should say that on the whole, I do not find that the Bjornaer are missing out so much by not having a familiar and do not see a great need to correct this.

But with this change they would have access to familiars, until they no longer do.
For a Bjornaer magi there would be no past where they did not have access to a familiar.
(Canonically, the inability to bind a familiar counts as a Minor Ordeal when going through the Ritual of Twelve Years.)

Like I said in my comments, it is mostly there for flavour.

Playable. I don't think it is imbalancing, but that is no reason to adopt it.

If the saga takes a form where Bjornar is disadvantaged, I think it is ok not to play Bjornær. That makes the house rule superfluous.

House rules in general, I find to be an extra burden, and they should have a very strong justification to accept. This is not even close.

The heartbeast form with an animal companion is, I think, a little bit odd. A minor point, maybe.

In short. Playable, but I would rather not.

I would totally allow it, mostly because when I think of Heartbeast I think of Animagi from Harry Potter which leads me to thinking of three boys becoming such for their forth friend and then I also like to imagine Harry himself learning the ability, though that is not canon.

Anyway, to me, there is no intrinsic reason why not and because of that I say go for it.

Imagine the impact to the order if someone managed to integrate the heartbeast mystery...

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I have imagined that, and my imagination of it is that it has surprisingly few consequences.

The most interesting effect, to me, is that it would make it so that all magi have a lot less in common with ordinary folk and likewise a lot more in common with each other, as integration of the heartbeast would mean that all magi are simultaneously both man and beast, truly (Essentially) rather than being people who can learn to wear the skin of beasts as one ability among many.

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It would also mean the bjorner house loses its distinctiveness, being a mystery cult with no primary mystery, and yet as long as they take apprentices they will not simply vanish.

That would make them no different than most of the other houses. Most of the houses have no unique magic powers, what distinguishes them from each other is the attitudes of their members.

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Your views on the familiar are a bit idealized I think.

For my sagas, familiars are individuals. Most of the time, those individuals are not interested in lab work. To get help, the maga may have to bargain. She probably can count on the familiar for longevity rituals and empowering the bond, but probably not much. It will be difficult to ask them to study magic theory books alone for a season (Ha! Whatever!). However, I agree it may depend on the familiar.

Moreover, familiars have drawbacks. One can have arguments with her familiar. The familiar may get targeted or kidnapped. Or even get killed. From time to time, it's a source of problem. Perhaps your familiar will cheat (and stole vis for his consumption), or he will fight other familiars, or even magi. Perhaps, he will travel alone from time to time. Perhaps he don't like when you help those petty humans and will try to convince you to act as he prefer?

My view is heavily influenced by the 4th edition, I think. If you don't see the familiar only as a tool, then suddenly it's not overpowered anymore... unless your familiar is called Sordus, of course. :wink:

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TBH. I think you hold the idealised view, and the opposing view is simply degenerate ... corrupted. :wink:

Something to keep in mind here- RAW, nothing prevents a bjorner from having an animal friend- indeed it would be very much in character for them to have one. A wolf bjorner might have a pack mate, a raven, or so forth. A magical animal friend who learns magic theory can still serve as a lab assistant, and do many of the things a familiar does, the major difference is that it cannot have the three cords.
Again given the bjorner history regarding the binding of spirits, it seems to me there is a very strong cultural reason for them to not have a familiar bound by the three cords.

I don't see anything in the books that suggest Bjornaer magi would have a cultural problem with familiars.
The witch-cult that Birna came from supposedly enslaved spirits and could then take their shape, and this is why House Bjornaer are very suspicious of shapeshifters. While it would not be unreasonable to extend that suspicion to any binding of spirits, I can't find anything to suggest this is actually the case.

Case in point: Birna was close friends with Merinita, even though Merinita was the one who introduced the binding of familiars to the Order. I really doubt they would have been close friends if Birna had thought there was something wrong about binding a familiar.
Keep in mind that a familiar must agree to be bound - it is a voluntary bond which works both ways, not enslavement or servitude.

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I must admit, I thought not having the cords is the big deal. I didn't realise in Monty Hall Ars Majica a familiar is also a lab assistant.

I'm a fan of Laurent's interpretation. A familiar is a living being with it's own goals and desire. The familiar probably doesn't have a desire to spend 2 seasons studying with the companion with good teacher puiisant and affinity in teaching, communication 5, magic theory 6, etc.

If a group is going the full monty hall, does game balance even matter at that point?