Hi, I've been looking through the books at the expected value when trading a lab text and while I found information about how much books are worth I wasn't able to find out how much the typical obligation is for exchanging/trading a lab text. Am I missing something important here or are lab texts really not considered very valuable?
The only place one can derive some kind of value for lab texts is from Covenants, which assigns them a cost of 1 build point per 5 levels. And later, 1 build point is worth 5 pawns of unspecified vis. This makes lab texts fantastically expensive, if you use that as a model, but it is, unfortunately, the only model that is immediately obvious.
So you have to venture into house rule territory. Consider that lab texts can be enormously valuable, allowing someone to learn a spell much faster than the normally would be able to do so. The Flambeau with CrIg lab total of 36 can learn Ball of Abysmal flame in one season, rather than 35. What's that worth? A lot. It also allows the Flambeau with a CrIg lab total of 70 to learn Ball of Abysmal Flame in a single season and 35 other levels of CrIg spells (as unlikely as this might be that such a character doesn't already know Ball of Abysmal Flame). That's worth quite a bit, too.
A saga I was part of, HBO Ars Magica run by Doctorcomics, established a reasonable house rule with regards to lab texts.
sites.google.com/site/hboarsmag ... -Lab-Texts
Personally, should I run a saga again, I'd expand the common spells to be in the core book, and the Houses book, with perhaps some from the Tribunal books, especially if they say they are common in the Tribunal.
Thanks for the hat tip, Jonathan!
I am considering altering the rule a bit, setting a minimum price per individual spell, of 1 pawn. My covenant has a lot of vis and I'm looking to price items appropriately. This would also discourage buying lab texts for common low level spells, as each would become significantly more expensive. But it wouldn't affect uncommon spells as much. I hate to change house rules in between campaign arcs, so this is only tentative right now.
The BP model does not match the listed pricing for other books, though. I would consider seasons being saved. You use a lab book to save seasons. How many seasons does the book save the typical magus? How much Vis can the typical magus harvest in a season?
Agreed, the pricing doesn't match other books, but as I remember, the price for lab texts isn't established anywhere else. Other books are defined later on, sure. The problem with attaching a cost to what a "typical" magus can harvest in a season means you have to define what a typical magus is. You have to define the parameters of harvesting, unless you meant to say distill from an aura. Then you have to define a typical aura for a covenant, too.
My primary concern with the time approach, is that in the example of the Flambeau who can just barely learn BoAF with the aid of a lab text in the season, would have to consider the sacrifice of 35 seasons of harvesting as the price he's willing to pay. It makes anything lower than that seem like a bargain, while at the same time ignoring the fact that such a spell is relatively common in the Order.
The time-vis approach is difficult to model, and doesn't present a consistent template with regards to what spells cost. It provides a mechanism that one allows to calculate the spell, the rates are always fluctuating and variable. And lets face it, after a lab text is created, it's quite often moldering in some library, waiting for the very occasional use by one of the magi. These are bulk goods, and should be priced accordingly.
For a common lab text, I would look at the cost to reproduce rather than utility- one season of copying can reproduce the scribes skill level in summae, which are worth their level in vis, so assume a covenant with scribes (trained in magic theory) would expect an income of the scribe's ability level in vis per season. Copying lab texts is 60 levels of lab text per level of ability per season, suggesting 60 levels of lab text would be worth 1 pawn of vis.
Lab text value isn't specified as far as I've found, but we can feel around the subject.
Per various sources, mostly Covenants:
A sound tractati: 2 pawns, regardless of level.
A sound summa: pawns = level
For rough indicator of magic/mundane wealth equivalency, a magical effect for covenant is held to save a covenant 5 lbs per magnitude. On the other hand, the Redcaps value a pawn of vis to be roughly equal to 10 lbs.
So, a lab text may be held to be worth roughly 5-10 lbs per magnitude, or 1-2 pwns, value varying depending on many circumstances.
This was the sort of back-of-the-napkin math I used for my rule, the logic for which I reprint here:
In comparison to other books, a "vain" tractatus costs 1 pawn, a "sound" one two. A "sound" summa costs vis equal to its level, with a season of delay. "Vain" summa cost about half this amount. A skilled scribe (with Ability 6) can produce one tractatus in a season, or any summa in two.
The same scribe could copy 300 levels of lab texts in a single season, establishing a "floor" or minimum value of 2 pawns for 300 levels of spells (or 1 pawn = 150 levels), and a "ceiling" of 10 pawns (or 1 pawn = 30 levels), since the same scribe could copy a Level 20 summa and get 20 pawns for it over two seasons.
However, scribes of Ability 6 are not necessary for lab texts in the same way that they are for tractati and summae; Ability 6 is required for those latter books to gain the highest quality, but lab texts do not have Quality scores. A scribe with Profession: Scribe of 6 is kept busy copying tractatus and summa, while lower level scribes practice their skill copying lab texts. Scribes working on lab texts will almost always have Ability 1-5, and also need minimal training in Magic Theory in order to avoid corrupting the text.
Working on the assumption that scribes will have lower skill, and will therefore be able to produce fewer lab texts in one season on average, the floor and ceiling price is halved, for a range of 1 vis = 15-75 levels. Presumably, the lower price would be for especially common spells (Pilum of Fire), while the higher price is reserved for spells which are uncommon -- but not so uncommon that the scriptorium fails to have a copy in its collection.
In fact, lab texts of popular or common can be copied in quantity and then kept in storage for order. When a magus wants to purchase spells, he could construct a grimoire by listing the spells that are to be in it, and the scriptorium or book seller could then construct the book to order, pulling from copies of lab texts already made in previous seasons.
For game purposes, spells are broadly divided into three categories: Common, Uncommon, and Rare.
Common spells include all spells in the Ars Magica core book. They cost 1 pawn for every 75 levels of effect.
Spells located in other official products, and which are not considered exclusive to their creators or House, are considered uncommon. These spells cost 1 pawn for every 15 levels of effect.
And spells which do not appear in official sources, or which are exclusive to their creators or their House, are considered rare. The purchaser is probably negotiating with the creator of the spell. The cost of these spells is determined on a case by case basis with low level spells being cheapest (about 1 pawn for every 5 levels) and high level ones being most expensive (1 pawn for every level of the effect).
General spells are an exception to the usual rules, because purchasers are unlikely to find a version of the spell at precisely the level desired. General spells are never common; treat them as uncommon if they are in any official source.
Yes, it is very difficult to model. But you can get some good estimates without going into so much trouble as you suggest. Let's say we value a season at 4 vis (separate argument from this first bit).
First, I don't think it's quite at contorted as you make out. Let's take your Flambeau example. This Flambeau has a CrIg lab total of 36. Would this mean the lab notes are worth 4x34=136 pawns of vis to him? Not a chance. Let's estimate Int 2 + MT (w/ specialty) 5 + Aura 3 + Creo 12 + Ignem 11+3 = 36. Well, he could pay roughly 4 pawns to increase Ignem by 2 and 2 pawns to increase Creo by 1. (Maybe a tiny bit over, but close enough.) Now he's spent 3 seasons and 6 pawns, allowing him to invent this spell in 9 seasons plus those 3. So buying the book would actually only be worth 4x11+6=50 pawns, and only that much if nothing else were involved. He got full value out of those 3 seasons and 6 pawns, and he'll benefit a lot from them in the future, so that really doesn't need to be recouped in any way, dropping the value to 4x8=32 pawns. Other stuff? He could spend 3 seasons on his lab for an expected +3 (later on it's lower, but early on +3 is easy) that will also benefit him with lots of other Creo/Ignem/Spells/General (depending on what he did). 2 seasons and 4 pawns (plus exposure that just happened) will increase MT by 1 more. Now the lab text is worth 4x4=16 pawns. Of course, he would pay a little less or he would gain nothing for the trade. So let's say he's willing to pay 12 pawns. And that's its value to someone who would benefit tremendously from it.
Meanwhile, someone who could make the spell in one season already might have a use for it to do a few spells in the same season. That's a pretty high but not unreasonable lab total to place the value at 2 pawns, reduced to 1.5 pawns or so in what is willing to be paid.
So we're probably looking between 1.5 and 12 pawns as those are two extremes of value. Let's try something more typical instead.
The biggest value will be for someone who requires 2 or 3 seasons. It would take them a long time to improve to reduce the seasons, so that's not much of an option. That's 1 or 2 seasons of savings, worth 4 or 8 pawns. Reducing that to what would be paid and we might see 3 to 6 pawns. So maybe we're looking at somewhere around 5 pawns.
Now, back to those 4 pawns per season. If it were 5, slightly more vis-rich and better distilling, then we're sitting right on top of 1 pawn per magnitude. If it were something else, we could adjust similarly.
Then there is competition. Common spells might have more essentially identical versions available and cost less. Rarer ones would cost more.
And then there is the cost to the writer to take into account. You can write so many levels in a season that getting 1 pawn per magnitude, even if you couldn't sell everything you wrote, would be fine, great even once you involve scribes. This might well result in competition to push prices down further. Maybe 0.5 pawn per magnitude would end up a better estimate?
So I really don't think it takes working up all those little details to get in the right ballpark.
That looks like a pretty reasonable set of guidelines to go by, thanks.
So far in our game we've just been trading lab texts for other lab texts.
One of the big issues is magical infrastructure- if there is a solid trade in copying texts then Adams style free market rules will apply- prices get pushed towards the cost of reproduction- which will probably be a mundane scribe with ability of 5 or 6 (depending on the saga- I tend to figure 5 is the standard craft ability for a given setting) and an ability of 1 in magic theory. Early apprentices will be given to copying tractatus (which can be done in the same amount of time regardless of ability) while the professionals will be copying summae and lab texts.
In less developed regions, lab texts almost are currency in the barter system, where books are likely to be exchanged for books and lab texts are the "loose change" of the system, according to what is available and useful.
Further complicating all this, many lab texts can be had nominally for free or for service, at Durenmar.
If you want to complicate it, don't forget folios, the cost of Potent vs. non-Potent versions of spells and lab texts for spells/effects that have beneficial side effects due to experimentation.
Also, would/should there be a disproportionate number of lab texts for 7th magnitude spells in circulation (all of those wannabe archmagi trying to prove themselves)?
Also consider that some labtexts are made to order.
Say you need a spell that cures hangover and restores your body to the state is was in before you lost your virginity to Dario at the party.
Your CrCo labtotal is awful but you would be able to learn the spell in the covenant communal lab that specializes in spells.
It may cost 4 pawns to have someone invent the spell for you. Here go for verditius price guidelines.
I have used the price of 5 pawns for scribal access to another powerful covenants library. No spells not listed in the main rule book and nothing above 5th magnitude were allowed to be scribed.
Otherwise I would go for tractati prices.
magnitude 1-4: 1 pawn per 5 spells
magnitude 4-6: 1 pawns each
magnitude 6+ 2 pawns.
Copying a lab text from Durenmar is free. Of course, you may have to deal with a local master who wants the same lab text that season, and you have to be able to get to Durenmar to copy, and there has to be quarters available for you...