Verditious questions (some rules, some advice)

Hi all,

My 4th ed saga will be drawing to a close before the distant future. I'm thinking I might make a Verditius for my first 5th ed character. This is partly as a challenge to myself; my friend Brian and I tend to agree that items were rather weak in 4th ed.

In any event, I have a few different questions about Verditius. Some are rules clarifications, some are for advice.

I see that Verditius get a few advantages that are unique to their house. I want to make sure I understand them correctly:

  1. They get a lab total bonus equal to their craft score, if the item involves the appropriate craft and the Magus uses raw materials.
  2. The entire section of the 'gem-in-the-latticework' section is confusing to me. From what I can tell, it means this: If you make an invested item or talisman that can't normally be made without magic (gem-in-the-latticework, a moebius strip, a 3-sided square), you get a bonus to the lab total equal to your philosophiaea? Or do you always get that bonus, as long as it's thematically (shape/form) appropriate and it's an invested device or talisman, not a charged item or lesser device? (essentially, it only applies on items that need to be opened for attunement).
  3. If you do the steps necessary to get a bonus from #2, you also pay 1 less pawn of vis per craft score (minimum 1 vis) when opening the item for attunement.
    Is it possible for a Magus to enjoy all three of these for one item? Am I correct that 2 and 3 only work for invested devices and talismans? Have I totally missed the mark in terms of what a Verditius needs to do in order to get the bonuses for 2 and 3? Also, this says 'raw materials only.' I assume that means if my Verditius buys a sword from a blacksmith and then opens it, he can't get the craft bonsu to the lab total?
    Feel free to answer the above in whatever format you like. It's hard to ask in simple questions given the complexity of the text. Sorry :frowning:.

Does Free Expression add to lab total if the Magus is making an artistic magic item? (A painting that shows a distant land, a fountain that purifes any water poured into it, etc).

Now, some strategy questions. I'm wondering what Arts are likely to be in demand from Veriditus, both for items they make for themselves and those for sale.
I remember a quote from Houses of Hermes: "Verditius Magi have the same varied interests as other Magi: They can be air wizards, beast mages, necromancers, and so on."
How much does this apply in 5th ed (if it ever did?) Do Verditius Magi naturally tend towards any arts over any other? I'd imagine that if nothing else, they tend to prize Vim since they work with enchantments. If nothing else, Creo Vim gives them Vim vis for openings.
Aquam Verditius, i should think, are fairly rare... no one wakes up and says "Gracious, I need an aquam device."
From what I can tell, of the techniques, Intelligo might be prized since devices are good for analysis and extrasensories. Rego could be in demand due to ward devices and traps as well. For the Forms, I'm at a loss.. Imaginem, for perceptions? Corpus, if only because it's a very common technique? (Then again, it's so common that few people are decicient in it). Perhaps Terram to work with materials?
I'm leaning slightly towards Intelligo, Rego, Corpus, Terram... but other than that, more or less at a loss. I know I can make whatever character I like, I'm just totally unsure what Verdtiius commonly go for.

One assumption (which may be flawed) that I'm making is that there doesn't necessarily have to be a matchup between the Craft skills and a Mage's arts. It's perfectly normal for a Mage to have a high Animal but no Leatherworking. Conversely, I assume it's ok for a Verditius to have Craft (carpentry) but no Herbam.

New question: In general, are items more or less cost-efficient with penetration than spells? I don't know whether it's logical or foolish to make an item intended to penetrate as opposed to a spell for the same purpose. "You made a combat item. Sweet, that'll be much handier than hoping a spell gets through." Or, "You fool, why make an item when it's much easier to get a spell through penetration?" This last might just be my newness with AM5 combined with not quite figuring out the math.

I'm also wondering whether Veridtius gimp themselves by generalizing (or specializing!) with respect to Arts. On the one hand, a low Art combination means it takes longer to make stuff, you get less charged items, etc. On the other hand, Verditius Magi alone can supplement that with craft scores.
Augh!

I should also back up my statements about 'items being weak.' Here's what I've observed. These aren't points I hold dearly; rather they're points I'd be very happy to see get nullified with better arguments washing them away.

  1. Making spells doesn't require vis. Items do. The time investment is otherwise similar.
  2. Any item you can make, you can make as a spell.
  3. Items (might) have lower penetrations than spells--again, this is due to my not quite getting the practice of 5e Penetration.
  4. A beneficial spell (healing, extra speed, whatnot) might use range: Personal, but the item would need Touch range.

It seems like the best use of Items are for items that you make for others--grogs, other Magi, etc. Or, if they're for spells that might be on the upper range of your ability to cast without fatiguing yourself. I do, however, love charged items and lesser devices
I also think a great use for items in 4e was nullified in 5e: Subtlety. Items are good for innocous effects--simply twiddle a ring around or rub two coins together, and you can give someone a heart attack, create a compelling illusion, or turn a cooked pheasant into a live, angry snake. With the removal of Reach and Near, it seems much harder to use an item to affect your general vicinity. Using items as 'sneak spells' is much harder: Unless you can make do with touch (item affects you), eye contact, or have the lab total to do Sight, it's much harder to use items to function as a spy. No sense Perdo-ing the kings chair if you have to use Voice range to do it, after all.

Do please knock down the above points. I want to be convinced that items are much, much better than I'm giving them credit for. I want to be disagreed with and shown the areas I'm overlooking.

To summarize, my main questions are:

  1. What advantages are unique to Verditius and how do they reap those advantages?
  2. What Arts are more useful to a Verdtiius than they would be to an 'average' Magus without a pre-defined specialty?
  3. Show me why items are much better than I thought they are :smiley:.

Forum etiquette question: For my future reference, should really long question posts such as this be split into multiple topics, or all lumped together?

Advice and insight will be greatly appreciated :slight_smile:.

Jim

Yes. I highly advise focusing in one Craft while picking up a little of a couple others. Make the main craft something flexible enough that you can make a number of different items and have all of them on your person. For example, I had one character focusing in jewelry. Also, take a look at Faerie Blood (Dwarf).

You always get the Philosophiae bonus up to the Magic Theory limit for Philosophiae+(form/shape bonus). The Philosophiae bonus is for Verditius Runes. The not-normally-craftable stuff is just cool.

Yes.

I think you can get 2 outside of greater enchanted devices. Yes, 3 is a bonus for opening items and so requires that they be opened.

I'll have to look that up.

Not normally, and as a storyguide I wouldn't allow it. Items can be very, very powerful in 5th ed. Verditius get lots of bonuses making items already.

You can use whatever Arts you want. It really doesn't matter that much. You don't even need CrVi since you can get extra vis from fees for making items. (Actually, you can even charge below normal rates for some things to steal business by having a low CrVi lab total.) I highly recommend Leadership. Do try to focus in a Technique and a Form, though. That will help you boost your Talisman's capacity and your familiar. You'll also be more in demand than someone who dabbles because you'll be able to make the best stuff. You might also want to compare what types of items you want to make with the Arts you want to use. For example, Rego works well with jewelry if you're going for protection.

Items can get some really sick penetrations. They are amazing that way. Look at effect expiry and charged items for some ideas of how to pull that off.

No, you can get some extra bonuses when making items. Even without that, that doesn't mean you'll be able to cast the spell.

It can go either way, but the quickest route to high penetrations is usually through items.

Talismans avoid that problem. (Note that healing is a ritual effect which cannot normally be put in an item.)

Chris

Correction, permanent instant healing is. A +15 to recovery/sun or moon duration wand isnt a bad thing to keep with you.

I would guess people can stand it either way.

We still use those kind of ranges, although we went a big step further and butchered the spell variable lists totally to get especially more lower end ranges and durations to pick from. Some can easily be squeezed in together with the standard 5th ed rules though.

Much more. The 2 penetration for 1 level rule means you can get hideously high penetration scores.
Its so good that houseruling this to 1/1 instead is not uncommon.

I would say they vary no more or less than others in general. Pick what you want.
Think about a few things you might want to make, then figure out what Art scores you need for those items.
A decent Ignem for example will allow you to easily make good light/fire/heat/cold devices, often much desired by covenants.

If its "artistic enough" i would probably allow it, but as callen said it might be a bit over the top.

I've been playing a Verditius (this guy, in case you're interested) for a while now, and at the risk of being completely superfluous, callen is slap bang on the money.

With regard to Arts, I think that picking a Te/Fo combination and specialising can produce some pretty amazing results, but I haven't gone that way myself. I think it's a little more interesting to create different sorts of items depending on what's needed. On the subject of Aquam devices, never doubt the value of a barrel that produces an endless amount of Sun-duration ale!*

Also:

Correct. However, if he obtained it from another Verditius, who had opened it with Verditius runes, he'd get all the neat effects.

[size=85]* CrAq 5, +2 Sun, +10 levels for unlimited uses = CrAq25[/size]

Thanks, everyone! Your answers are extremely, extremely helpful. I now feel I have a much better understanding of how Verditius rules and strategy work. I think I might take a limited generalist: Scores at roughly equal values, in a small handful of Techniques and Forms. I plan on taking Secondary Insight as my Major Hermetic Virtue.

I agree that allowing Free Expression would be a bit too broken. As far as I can tell, nothing in the rules prohibits me from taking Puissant Magic Theory, Puissant Craft, Affinity with Magic Theory, and Affinity with Craft in combination. Oh, that's another question: In general, do you find that affinity (bonus to study) or Puissant (blanket +2) is more useful?

I also have to humbly ask a question whose answer should be glaringly obvious, yet I can't find it anywhere: What Characteristic is usually tied to Craft works? I could see an equal case for Intelligence, Perception, or Dexterity. Well... maybe not intelligence, only because I'm a pretty smart guy but can only manage a stick figure on a good day :wink:. I honestly have no clue what Characteristic is related to most Crafts.

I'm planning on taking a few different Craft scores, again at equal ability. There isn't a particularly specific definition, other than to say crafts can either be wiht materials or techniques (techniques and forms, anyone?) I imagine craft scores in woodworking, metalworking, and leatherworking would keep me relatively covered (though I may hurt for stone masonry). Simply to consolidate my virtue points, I think I'll be more likely to take puissant Magic Theory than one for each of my crafts--the bonus is the same. I promise to have it make sense from an RP perspective.

Thanks again for all your advice; you're really helping me with this character :slight_smile:.

Personally I tend to specialise more in crafting itself rather than in specific arts, though having some higher ones you prefer can be very useful, especially if you plan to get Elder Runes in the future (and I very much would recommend it, if just for the extra vis use bonus, it helps if you plan ahead and want to make very powerful invested items)
This basically means focusing on getting a high magic theory, high int, high craft score.. all the things which you can raise which will improve -any- items you make. Magic theory is easily the most important (and you may as well specialise in enchanting items) as it will also give you the higher shape and material bonuses.. every point of MT you have is a +2 to your crafting labtotal basically, so it's well worth it. Taking Affinity/Puissant MT can help this even further. Puissant MT will once again end up providing a +4 lab total bonus in the long run for enchanting, so it's more efficient.
As people have mentioned, it's probably best to focus on one or two crafts, if you take a wide one you can make pretty much anything from it. Philosophae is actually often less useful than you'd think.. if you plan to get the elder runes I mentioned above, then it's worth raising it a bit, but I often have no problem maxing out the S&M bonuses by making compound items anyway.

As for arts, personally.. I never found much use for Intellego.. always was a bit too worried about the no scrying rules.. having high scores in your techniques is a no brainer obviously, as they'll apply more often. As the others have said.. you can pretty much take what you want really, it's generally a matter of personal preference.

Also, don't neglect your lab.. if you spend some seasons of loving care on your lab (as well as a hell of a lot of silver) you can readily stack up some -very- nice bonuses.. take a greater feature/focus combination .. you've just added +5 to your item crafting total. Also don't forget that you can make items to give yourself other lab bonuses, and these won't necessarily take up any lab space.. if you're inventive enough, you can save yourself a fair amount of bother with things like that, though you might start racking up a warping score.

Something else to consider.. the inventive genius virtue.. this is perhaps one of the more useful ones for a Verditius.. (arguably any mage as well).. it's a solid +3 to pretty much any item you make.. and if you've made one before.. you won't need the bonus anyway.. if you plan to risk experimentation, (or are planning any original research) then definitely take it, +6 is really handy.

As for penetration, what we usually houserule in our games is different levels/costs of penetration, to stop the insanely high penetrations you can easily throw out with the normal rules. We make charged items a 1/1 cost, lesser invested get 1/1.5, and only greater invested items get the 1/2 core rate.

.. .. hmm.. pretty much all the advice/help I can think of at the moment.. basically just try and have fun with it.. oh, and try and be mercenary.. offer to make items for your covenant in return for vis.. especially ones that will most likely help you -too- .. remember, by house law you -have- to charge your set rate, it's a little expensive.. but you can make items others can't (and are usually happy to spend the time doing so).
If your covenant lives in one structure, then any item that can be made to improve your lab can provide the same bonus for others.. convince them to pay you for the priviledge, after all, it's helping them too.. often it's worth the extra few magnitudes to the effect in return for the extra payment from your sodales, even if they manage to talk you down into splitting the costs between you.

Some other things to bear in mind. Verditius aren't especially adaptable.. they often can't go charging into situations and flinging off spontaneous spells with their high level arts.. plan ahead.. try and make some items that will be of use in quite a lot of situations.. such as a ring that can teleport you, some kind of defensive item, and maybe a single high penetration offensive item. If you need anything else it will likely take you a season to prepare for it, so you can sometimes be caught off guard.
Mostly I go for several lesser invested items over a single greater.. simply because of the fact that greaters will take an extra season just to open.. but obviously depending on the effects that might not be possible.. if you do go with a greater, take advantage of the fact that the spells can be interlinked and modified in various ways, you can make some very interesting effects that normal mages can't easily do. Take a flying spell, normally a magi using one as a spell would have to be concentrating on it to fly, so damage or distractions of any kind are bad.. make it as an item with Concentration and Maintains Concentration.. and you're pretty much set.. the item will maintain concentration whenever you're not consciously controlling it. By our groups interpretation, this could mean you could basically fly on cruise control, you set the direction and speed and the item will happily maintain it for you.

Other tips involve things like Sun duration.. .. try not to use it.. you don't -need- it that often in items (unless flickering is a -very- bad thing). Instead, take duration concentration and maintains concentration.. you'll then have the option of turning it off when you don't need to use it anymore... it's sometimes even worth doing this if you're after a more or less constant effect.. (as due to the vis costs, you'll usually want to make things in nice round levels of 10), 2 uses a day is +1 .. which leaves you with an un-rounded number.. switch it to have enviromental trigger sun, and 3 uses a day for +2 and you've got a nice clean +5, plus, you can turn it off at one point if you need to, then switch it on again without it affecting its performance (this is handy if you have item based lighting in your lab, just turn it off when you want to go to sleep, and then it'll come back on at dawn to wake you up.. but can also activate it in middle of night if there's an emergency)

.. phew.. think that's it

Though it's nice flavor-wise, it's not really good considering it costs three times the minor virtues. At very least, try to get the storyguide to house rule it to include all accumulation of experience in Arts. Even then, it's not great as a major virtue.

Seriously consider Faerie Blood (Dwarf) over (or in addition to) Puissant Craft X. It's more than half of Puissant Craft X, but it applies to all Craft abilities, not just the one Craft X.

Also note: Faerie Sympathy is your friend, especially for a Faerie Blood (Dwarf) Verditius.

Generally:

Affinity > Puissant for Arts
Puissant > Affinity for Abilities (except Magic Theory)
In the case of Magic Theory they're fairly even; it will depend on your character. Personally, for a lab rat that a Verditius is likely to be, I prefer Affinity w/ Magic Theory. Then I place 1 point into Magic Theory and get 1.5 rounded to 2 every season.

Strength or Dexterity, depending on the craft. It's in City and Guild. But Intelligence is the most important since you can use it in the lab. Also, look at quality items in City and Guild.

Yes, that makes sense. Also consider my comments about Faerie Blood.

Chris

Dexterity, normally. But make a case within your saga for another Characteristic, if you want! Chapter 4 of City and Guild has tons of information about crafting.

If you're rolling in vis, then sure, but Philosophae saves vis when opening items for enchantment; it can also indirectly save vis by not requiring a compound item, thereby reducing the base amount of vis necessary to open it. Philosophae also works as a "wild card" shape-and-material bonus, in case your client just has to have a magical toothbrush despite your insistence that magical mouthwash would be much more sympathetic to the effect.

Now a question for everyone: I have always sort of conflated the two perks in the middle column of ArM5 page 93 and mentioned earlier in this thread. Namely, my Vertidius magus has shaped raw materials into an appropriate item during the first, open-item-for-enchantment, season; and, if the item corresponded to his Craft Ability, then he also received a bonus to his Lab Total coming from his Craft Ability score. But a closer reading of the rules suggests that the Craft Ability bonus might only apply if he crafted the item in a mundane way, before any Hermetic laboratory seasons spent enchanting the item. This interpretation would necessitate an extra season of work (e.g., two seasons to make a lesser enchantment, the first to craft the item and the second to enchant it). Which interpretation do you think is RAW? Which interpretation do you use?

My group has always assumed that crafting an item from raw materials happens during the season in which you open it for enchantment. It certainly doesn't make sense to require a whole extra season to do the crafting, unless you're trying to enchant a house. So I'd say go with that. It certainly hasn't turned my character into a game-breaking enchantment powerhouse.

Hi all,

I greatly appreciate the replies. They help me shape this character and help me understand Verditius in general.

I probably won't be able to get away with being too mercenary as a character. I'm the ST in this game. I'll probably err on the side of generosity, I don't want to expose myself to (justified) complaints that I'm favoring my character.

A question about trigger effects. I can pretty much make anything a trigger, from "put the ring on, twist it clockwise three times, then when the gem is pointing towards your palm utter the Latin for "He who is prepared is not he who is defeated" to "Say the word 'Bob.'"

Am I allowed to have effects that technically aren't linked, but in actuality are likely to 'see' a trigger based on a previous effect?
Consider a series of items item:
Item 1 is a wooden wand. Effect 1 is a creo ignem effect, with an imaginem requisite to launch a purple flame at someone. The trigger is 'normal,' like pointing the wand and saying a code word.
Item 2 is a glass orb. The effect is a muto corpus effect, animal requisite to turn someone's feet into dolfin fins. The trigger is that whenever a person points a wand at a person who's in fire with purple flames, the orb's effect is cast on that person. (Thus, the wearer doesn't need to take a special action to trigger this: He's still pointing the wand at the target to invoke effect #1, and effect #2 is triggered instantaneously since the trigger conditions are suddenly met).
Item 3 is a pair of boots. It has a perdo corpus effect that causes 'wound that weeps.' The trigger is that whenever a person with dolphin fins for feet is on fire with purple flames, the effect is triggered on that person.
And so on. By only using one action to point the wooden wand and say the word, the other three items 'go off.'

Heck, I can be less cutesy. I can give item #2 a physical trigger: Whenever item #1 is pointed at someone and a word is spoken, item #2 kicks in.

Are these feasible? I'm almost hoping not, because they are UNIMAGINEABLY cheesy.

BTW, I think I will take Affinity with Magic theory over Puissant. Given that I'll be tossing exposure XP into Magic Theory most seasons, it seems the benefit will compound over time quite nicely.

May as well give the list of virtues and flaws I foresee for this characters:

Flaws:
Painful Magic (Major)
Necessary Condition: Wearing Family Crest (Major)
Close Family Ties (Minor)
Disorienting Magic (Minor)
8 flaw points total
Possibly considering 'Humble' (I'm a dwarf, but weak-blooded. I'm good with items, but there's so much more to learn!)

Virtues:
Secondary Insight (Major)
Good Teacher (Minor)
Adept Student (Minor)
Dwarf Bloof (Minor)
Inventive Genius (Minor)
Affinity with Magic Theory (Minor)
8 virtue points total
Possibly considering either a good reputation, or social contacts, to justify him getting comissions fairly often from mundanes and Hermetics.

The idea is that he came from a family of hard-working craftsmen rumored to have dwarven ancestors. He was always a bit odd, but the close-knit family made sure he was never abused or neglected as a child. At a very young age, he showed a high promise.
When a man introducing himself as a Mage came to take my character away as his apprentice, the clan rebelled. They were so incensed that they nearly resorted to force of arms against hte Mage. Their child was a crafter, a builder, not some nose-in-a-book wizard! Before their righteous indignation could build up much steam, the parens chuckled understandably. He explained that he represented a tradition of Mages who focused most of their energy around creating magical items. So, he had no intention of taking the boy's studies away from that.
Thus mollified (and a bit sheepish), the family sent my character away with their blessing, asking only that they stay in contact. The parens kept his word, and my character remains close to his clan this day (hence the flaw).
Magic itself has never been particularly a joyful experience for my character (hence the flaws), but he showed a keen interest in taking his pre-exisitng craftsman skills and working them into the ideas of Hermetic Magic (Hence Inventive genius, and the affinity with magic theory). The parens was impressed by my character's voracious desire to learn, humility in regards to the vast pool of knowledge that existed, and hunger to be able to build more. In particular, my character showed an excellent ability to apply learnings to various different subjects (Adept Student, Secondary Insight).

To be honest, I'm having a lot of fun with this character already. Despite the fact that the current 4th ed saga hasn't even ended yet, let alone beginning the 5th ed :smiley:.

It's important to give credit to Neil Taylor--I'm using his character generator to play around with, and it's extremely helpful. Without it, I'd come to grief with math, since I'm forever second-guessing myself when making characters.

I suspect the hardest part of this character will be picking the Arts he specializes in. That's where Secondary Insight comes in; I can raise other arts in my spare time. None of the other Major Hermetic Virtues fit this character's idea particularly well.

Thanks agin for all your advice, and keep it coming. I am grateful :slight_smile:.

Be sure to get the Mystery cults book. There are some wonderful merits and flaws for you in there. You should pick up humble and confraternity member, and look at elder runes. If you are the SG, then you should focus on a couple of arts to begin with, and start making items to improve you lab. Remember, the items don't have to be built into the lab, they can be shared. That will make you very popular with the actual players, and give your character reasons to send the players out to get viz and other hard to find items. Remember to have a big goal. You are an enchanter. Your magic if properly done, is immortal. What will you leave the ages......

Since you´re the SG, set the standard from the start that Secondary Insight triggers whenever getting XP in an Art instead of just when studying. And dont forget to notify the players of this and anything else you might houserule.
Otherwise the virtue is quite weak.

Yes, it also allows you to make use of the bonus if you want to write books(the puissant bonus doesnt count there).

Yes, BUT the triggering will have to be handled as a separate effect that has the ability to notice the trigger, which means only invested devices can do it.

Hi all,

I have a couple questions on penetration. i've noted that items can indeed get a bit on the sickly powerful side. However, it seems there are few ways to enhance an item's penetration after it's made. By way of analogy, I have some questions:

I make an item, perdo corpus effect. I add an extra 10 levels for penetration, so it has an effective penetration score of 20. Consider these few situations.

  1. Suppose my character has a penetration score of 3. Does my penetration, as item-creator, add to the item's penetration at the time the item is made?
  2. Suppose a character iwht a penetration score of 4 uses the item. Does the penetration of the item user, at time of use, add to the penetration score of the item?
  3. Suppose someone has a lock of the target's hair at the time they use the item. Does this arcane connection increase penetration at time of use?
  4. Suppose I obtain a lock of hair from someone I don't like. I weave that lock of hair into the item's construction. Does that arcane connection, at time of creation, increase the item's penetration against that one particular target?

Ofcourse, 'arcane connection' could just as easily read 'true name' or 'unlucky constellation.'

Are there any ways to increase an item's penetration besides dedicating levels to it at creation? If not, I can definitely see why items enjoy the two-for-one ratio.

Interesting questions!

For #1 and #2, the answer to me is definitely no. I could see some cousin Abilities to Penetration that allowed these bonuses (Penetrating Enchanter and Penetrating Item-User ... although the latter name might be NSFW, particularly if mis-hyphenated); however the first person to invent such Abilities would probably need a research breakthrough to do so. I also say no for #3, although for a Penetrating Item-User it might be yes.

As for #4, I'm pretty sure the RAW doesn't admit such a bonus. Still, as a storyguide, I'd be tempted to allow it (possibly requiring a roll on the Experimentation: Extraordinary Results table). I would definitely allow it if the item's effect were designed to affect only the person you don't like!

1,2,3 Not a chance.
4, only functional against a single target, yes i think it should be allowed but i dont think its by RAW.

For what it's worth, I'll throw in my agreement with gerg and Direwolf regarding questions #1-3. I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow #4 - it's certainly a feature of real-world magical traditions (everything from Egyptian curse tablets to contemporary voodoo dolls). You could be justified in saying that incorporating an arcane connection into an item limits the function to the subject of that connection. The magic could be just too bound up with that particular individual.

Greetings all,

Thanks again for the replies :slight_smile:. My character is taking shape.

I think I will houserule that Secondary Insight does apply whenever XP is gained. Thus, casual exposure and adventure will both trigger the benefits. However, it only happens once a season: You can't take 1 adventure XP in muto (thereby getting 1 each in terram, aquam, vim, and imaginem from SE) and 1 adventure XP in Corpus (thereby getting 2 XP in Creo and 2 XP in Intelligo). It can only happen once each season, otherwise it really would be brokenly powerful. That said, casual and adventure XP will be allowed to give secondary insight bonuses. I'd need unanimous troupe approval since I'm the ST, though.

I also think I won't allow items to be cutesy and allow chains of effects. One item use per round, not four from a chain. (Though I did enjoy the idea of 'set him on fire. Now shoot lightning at the fire guy. Now perdo corpus at the flaming guy struck by lightning. All with one actino on my part).

I note that when using Creo to make physical objects, you make a finesse roll to see how well made the object is. Likewise, when using Rego to turn raw materials into finished products, you also use a finesse roll to see if it worked. Can I substitute a craft ability if I desire? Ex: Say I'm using Rego Herbam to turn a tree branch into a staff. If my finesse is 2 but my woodworking is 3 with the dwarf blood virtue, can I add 4 instead of 2?

Rego can be used in lieu of actual craftmanship, in order to get an equivalent result with less time but more difficulty. I'm trying to get into a Verditius' mindset on that regard. Would this be considered a very useful skill to save time? Or would a Verditius look down on this as a lazy Magus' way of avoiding true craft; 'genuine' crafter Magi use their hands to make soemthing?

I also finally caught on to how evil items can be with respect to penetration, particularly charged items. Let me see if I get it right:
Pick some evil Perdo Corpus effect that requires penetration and is of a reasonable level.. say, 20 or so. Make it as a charged item. Dump in as many levels towards penetration as you can, as long as you can make one charge out of it. So if my lab total is 35, put 15 levels towards penetration. This gives me one charge of an item, with penetration 30.
Next season, do it again--since I have a lab text, it will give me 7 charges of this mean item at penetration 30. Is that more-or-less how it is supposed to be done?
I assume, btw, that effect expiry comes in AFTER penetration is totaled. So if I put the 15 levels to penetration and say it will expire after 70 years, Im' exceeding it by one... not by 15. No 60 levels of end-result penetration for me :slight_smile:.

I actually don't think I'll houserule against penetration and the 2-to-1 ratio. The reason is because items can't enjoy arcane connections or sympathetic connections for the most part, as agreed upon by previous answers. I will allow #4, though. It fits well wtih the medieval paradigm: "This wand was dipped in the blood of the demon Sha'karnick. It is his only true weakness. Use it against him!"

I have run across what I worry is a particularly broken use of the 'device maintains concentration' ability. It seems that this can quite easily sidestep two hermetic limits: Essential Nature and Duration.
Say I make a charged item that turns a person into a statue (for use on an enemy). I choose to make it duration concentration, item maintains concentration for wielder. I then zap an enemy with it. If it goes through, the item concentrates for me. All I have to do is remember to re-concentrate each sunrise and sunset, and my enemy is now permanently a statue. This can be a functionally permanent effect (as long as I live, anyway), despite the enemy's true nature.
As an alternative, say I make it simply inflict a light wound. If my knowlege of Perdo is correct, a duration other than momentary means that the damage persists and doesn't heal until the magic expires. If it were Momentary, the target would have a light wound that heals normally. If it were Moon, the target would have a wound that stayed open for a month, then healed normally. But what about concentration? If I keep with the same idea as above, the target keeps that light wound and doesn't heal until I forget to concentrate or someone else magically heals him.

In the above two examples, the magic persists. Even if I travel 100 miles away, it doesn't matter that I can't see the target. The device is still 'concentrating' on the spell.

Are these correct interpretations of the rules as written? I almost hope not, given how insidious they are :slight_smile:. I imagine the likeliest misunderstanding is that once the item is 'voice' range away from the target, it can no longer maintain concentration on the effect.
Granted, as previously stated, this is still highly useful for benefical effects :slight_smile:.

Still somewhat torn on techniques to take. I'm flip-flopping between Perdo (combat), Muto (combat/utility), and rego (combat/travel/protection). We shall see :slight_smile:. That's where secondary insight comes in, I suppose.

On a side note, one downside is all the points on Crafts. I've spent nearly 120 XP on Craft: Woodworking, metalworking, jeweler, and tailor. (Biggest focus on woodworking and tailor).

Still and all, this character is going to be a good deal of fun :slight_smile:.

Jim

Yeah, but dont forget that all such items would have to be invested, no lesser devices or anything, making it a very expensive idea. Far easier to get a simple formulaic spell mastered with multicast.

I would say no, because you´re doing the shaping through magic, Finesse is whats required. OTOH, being capable of doing it without magic should help... Maybe something like, add half the Craft score to the Finesse score? That retains Finesse as the main skill, but gets a bonus if your craft ability is good enough...

Yes. And by now i expect you start figuring why many house rules limiting item penetration exists. :mrgreen:

True and understandable. My guess is that you have about 50/50 to change your mind after you have been running a game for while. :wink:

Absolutely. I will certainly steal this idea as well. :smiling_imp:

Dont know for sure, but very simply i would never ever allow that. The example of an item causing a wound, i would say that as long as it is active(conc maintained) whenever it touches something(or is otherwise in range ) it will cause a new wound every "round". Ie, the conc. maintains the ability to cause wounds but has nothing to do with wounds already caused. Its the ability to cause wounds that is the effect IN the item.

Always remember, if you play a Verditius, THINK BIG! :mrgreen:
Once you get some experience for the character, they can create some really fun stuff, go wild! :wink:

Greetings,

I'm looking forward to this character. My only real regret is the craft point-sink (and virtue-sink as well). 3's in my three chosen crafts do add up. I'm also seriously thinking Puissant for all three of them as well. (It's amazing what I can do when I stop disagreeing with people for no good reason and realize that Secondary Insight, does, in fact, stink). My crafts, btw, are Weaver, Carver, and jeweler. (I was going to take 'tailor,' but my girlfriend is trained as a seamstress and informed me that I could qualify for more 'raw materials' bonuses iwth weaving instead).

It seems like Verditius are mildly screwed with their house benefit. Everyone else gets a free virtue (Puissant Magic Theory, Self Confident, etcf) or a free new ability (Faerie Magic, Enigmatic Wisdom, etc). A verditius, however, gets no intrinsic benefit in and of itself--they need to sink points into their craft scores

Out of curiosity, do you think that Hermetic Magi are foolish if they don't take a Major Hermetic Virtue? I didn't find one that would fit well with this character's concept. (Painful Magic, which seems important to my concept, rules out many of the Major HV's).

I'm thinking I'll have to make a few boom-sticks at first using the ol' charged item routine. Then some covenant improvement. Then some items on comission to raise my vis stocks. Then I can branch out into more permanent-type items. I've got ideas for quick-transporting things using Rego, self-improvement using Muto, and an invested device speciazlng in Warding.

Quick question: I've noticed that there's a pretty hard-and-fast rule: You always have to either aim or penetrate a spell, never 0, never both. Is that one of those no-exceptions rules? The idea that comes to mind is an Acme Anvil with Creo Terram. The anvil itself obviously must penetrate, since it's magical. Does that mean I don't have to aim it? Would I need a Rego Requisite?

Is 'inflicting a light wound' particularly advantageous as a combat effect? (Or a medium wound, for that matter). Lesser foes would run away, but more powerful enemies would shrug off the penalty. 5 medium wounds in a row doesn't actually drop someone to the ground, if I'm reading the rules right. It seems like inflicting fatigue levels may be the way to go. (Until I hit the point where I can inflict heavy wounds, incapacitating wounds, or render someone unconscious).

Some more items question. Forgive me if these stray into the thwap-upside-the-head realm.
Can items enjoy the benefit of ceremonial casting?
Can I invest the spell 'Maintaining the Demanding Spell' into an item?

It's definitely impossible to avoid both possibilities: "If [a spell] is not resisted, it must be aimed" (AM5 page 86). But I think it's possible to have a spell that requires both: your Acme Anvil CrTe spell is an example - it can be resisted, since it's a magical object, and it also must be aimed since it affects the enemy indirectly. Most of the time, if you know the spell is going to be resistable anyway, you might at well make it automatically hit the target to avoid the aiming roll. As you say, a Rego requisite might well be required in that case.

You're right about how wounds stack. Wounds take longer to recover from than lost fatigue (days, weeks, months rather than one day), but maybe there's not much difference in the span of a single combat, so take whichever is going to give worse immediate penalties.

No - shape and material bonuses are the analogue for enchanted items.

Hmm. Muto Vim spells can be invested into items, as long as they act on other effects in that item (as per the MuVi guidelines on AM5 page 159). So I don't see why the ReVi "Maintaining" spell couldn't be inveseted into an item too; but it could only affect another effect in that item. (So I can't have a wand that maintains all my personally cast formulaic spells for me.) And with that restriction, we might as well just have the item maintain concentration in the original effect - much more cost-effective in terms of spell levels.