Verditius price for selling items... how does it work?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Hi,
I have read the HOH MC saying that the cost for an invested item from verditius is priced as : "The standardized price of an item
is twice the vis necessary to make it, in
addition to the vis required for the project." (HoH mc p114).
I knew that, forgot about it, read it and am still pondering how it can really work.
So I have this verditius NPc 20 years out of gauntlet (complex creation, season per season).

She just found a buyer for an automata with might 17 and 16 pawns worth of effects.

From her point of view, (using the House rule from peripheral code I installed in the game) it will cost (17-8 [craft material] (which is not very clear in HoHMC if it reduces cost or not so HR) = 9 Vim to open) +16 Terram.
So "required vis for the project = 9vim +16 terram.
"vis necessary to make it" (what's the difference???) is 25 pawns x2 .
So buyer pays 50 pawns +9 vim + 16 terram.

Besides, using multiple seasonal activities she did two automatas with the labtext (because creating the first version required to double the levels so... and opening is quite easy with elder runes which multiply MT per philosophiae rather than 2), so she has one spare to sell for the same time spent working (but she advanced the 25 pawns of vis)).

And I'm counting the verditius reduction, letting better verditius have more customers for the same items, which I'm not even sure should be taken into account.
So maybe the normal price should be (17+16) x3 = 99...

Who would pay 75 pawns for an automata who breaks in some years? (not even saying 99). Of course the issue is the same for all sorts of items. A previous elder verditius invented an attuned magical ring with almost 100 pawns of effect (thus invested for almost 100, not counting celestial magic, craft and hermetic alchemy). I don't even understand who would buy such for almost 600 pawns

I can't get that my calculation are correct, but I don't how to read the rule in HoH MC otherwise.

Thank you for any comment and advice,

Greetings,
Exar.

2

"Twice the vis necessary to make it" is 2x the opening cost. Using the numbers from your example, that's 9x2 = 18.

Add to that the "vis required for the project", which in your example is 16 terram. 18+16 = 34, not 50. Why you added that 50 to 9 and 16 again, I do not know.

And that's just sales to other magi. Sales to mundanes are for mythic pounds at the 15 to 1 pounds to pawns ratio. So in the above would cost 15 x 34 = 510 mythic pounds.

3

Well I explained my reasoning.
I don't see how "necessary to make" and "required for the project" are different.
Without the vis from opening + effects, the project cannot be done => it's required.
To make that item both the vis from the opening + the vis from the effects is needed.
Hence I finally do a x3.

Where do you find that "necessary to make" is only the opening ? because opening an item is not enough to "make" an invested item bought by someone with what he wants in it.
Where do you find "required for the project" doesn't cover the opening cost? because it's required to open an item to invest effects in it.

That's the pieces of information I'm apparently missing and I don't get where you find that information if your interpretation is the right one.

Looking for "required", it appears for opening vis too (eg: HOH MC 129:

After constructing the automaton, the magus must prepare it for enchantment. This takes a number of pawns of Vim vis equal to the automaton’s Magic Might score. The magus must do this in a single season. He cannot fail at this part of the process, although the limit of vis that he can use in a season might not be high enough to accommodate the amount he must use. If this is the case, preparing the automaton for enchantment can wait until he can use the required amount of vis. The constructed automaton sits idle in his laboratory.

. So I'm not sure your interpretation is right.

But then I read the automaton example:

"Hephaestion has spent two years enchanting this automaton. As the last season ends, he casts a level 30 Tie the Threads that Bind, which is higher than the automaton’s Magic Might 11 + 15. This completes the process and costs six pawns of Vim vis. The total vis cost for the automaton is 22 pawns. Hephaestion charges Guigues 460 Mythic Pounds, 330 for the vis used and 130 for construction expenses. This is half the cost of an entire castle! Guigues baulks at the cost but accepts the bargain, much to the chagrin of his already overtaxed tenants."

The opening is 11 pawns, the effects instilled are 1+3+1 .
I don't get how the example gets to 22 . It's either 11+ (1+3+1)x2 or (your version) 11 x2+(1+3+1) or (version I thought) (11+1+3+1)x3.
None of those make 22.

Then I notice that the ritual costs 6 pawns, which may allow to get to 22 (11+1+3+1+6 = 22).
But then, where is the "twice" from The standardized price of an item is twice the vis necessary to make it, in addition to the vis required for the project.

So, yes, I'm clearly lost.

If someone has a more informed advice or references to get this right, and explain the automaton example, I'd be very grateful.

4

My understanding is x3 as well.

5

I think "plus the vis required to make it" is a misstatement.

The next sentence is "If the project does not require vis, the Verditius magus figures out how much vis he could extract during the time that it takes to finish the project, and doubles
that amount as the price."

I think "twice the vis necessary to make it" is the price.

6

"Then I notice that the ritual costs 6 pawns, which may allow to get to 22 (11+1+3+1+6 = 22).
But then, where is the "twice" from The standardized price of an item is twice the vis necessary to make it, in addition to the vis required for the project."

This part I believe I can answer. In the example given, the automata is for a mundane who is paying in money (expressed as mythic pounds), and the price given is "330 for the vis used". In the section you quoted earlier on prices charged for enchantment, it says the Verditius primus has set the price the house charges at 15 mythic pounds per pawn of vis used. 22 pawns of vis times 15 = 330. There's no doubling for a mundane; that is subsumed in the arrived at price of 15 MP per vis used, which is 1.5 times the normal ratio of 10 to 1.

The example also cited the "cost of construction" of the automata as 130 MP, which is the magic might of 11 times the normal rate of 10 MP per vis. Why it's not 1.5x as it was for the enchantment, I don't know. I guess you could explain that as the Verditus valuing their enchanting abilities more than their crafting abilities. It does add a bit of complication though, by using different values.

7

Well I got 22 vis in pounds = 330. For the +130 I understand that maybe they take the "construction cost" as in the description (adding it bluntly, in pounds) [that makes me wonder: how much is worth the automata human sized of gold... according my size calculation, that's a +2 individual Creo Terram gold ritual spell (it's very hard to calculate in the metric system with those pounds and other feet...), but how to decide how much 330 kg of gold (~) is worth? The automata itself is might 20, thus "theoretically 200 pounds", but rules say to take into account material, here gold. I decided for 500 pounds per might point, but I can't see any mundane able to pay 10k pounds).]
I'm not sure I agree but anyway, before going to mundane buyer, I'd like to understand how it should be calculated for hermetic buyer.

For that example gold automata:

  1. ritual for gold = 7 Te
    OR ? AND?
    automaton creation = 20 might (size 0 + gold) = 200 pounds (or 20 pawn in the usual 1p = 10 pounds). I don't buy that 330kg of gold is only worth 200 pounds.

  2. 20 (-9) vis invested = 11vim

  3. 20pawns of effects (17 Te, 3 Im)

  4. 7 Vi for tie that binds ritual

Theoretical price?
selling price for magi?

I can't decide. I don't understand. I'll gladly take any opinion from someone who practiced this.

Edit : if you have house ruled "selling price" don't hesitate to share. Because I'm currently investiging doing this if I can't understand the canon rule.

8

We usually charge twice the amount of vis required to create the item. In your first example, that would be 17 Vim vis and 16 Terram vis. Since 1 Terram vis is considered equivalent to 2 Vim vis, the total value would be 49 Vim vis, or 25 Terram vis, or an appropriate combination of different vis types.

Normally, a Verditius magus reduces the final price in order to remain competitive and sell his items more cheaply than others, often taking full advantage of his reduced vis requirements.

Payment is usually made in two installments: one time the exact needed vis ahead (otherwise some increase the price, because they need time and effort to get the correct vis) , then the rest when the item is finished (That period is often used to renegotiate the price for one reason or another. It provides an opportunity for haggling and, more importantly, for stories; like "Forget the vis. There is a dragon's hoard hidden in the northern mountains. Bring me Eidri's Hammer, which lies among its treasures, and the item is yours.")
And when dealing with mundanes, the price is rarely paid in coin. More often, payment takes the form of favors: the right to maintain armed retainers, the grant of a parcel of land, permission to operate a mine, or certain exemptions from taxes. Such arrangements are typically negotiated to provide lasting benefits for the covenant rather than immediate wealth, which mundanes rarely have anyway.

9

Actually, Verdi are all cursed. The opening of the gift by a Verdi leaves a mark of hubris and the house is rampant with pride. The house holds status based on how much their creations have sold. it would be humiliating to sell their service at a cost below their house mates, even more so if lower than their Sodalis. As the hubris grows, they come to see their creations as children and will need to be hard pressed to sell them. Some can't live with them away, and they resort to schemes to steal back what is rightfully theirs!

RAW gives guidelines for the price of their creations but I find that it is better to simply calibrate it to your campaign. A Verdi creation should be something that comes with status. If you own one, it is not only assumed it is powerful but it also shows that you had the resources and/or influence to secure it. It should always come at a premium vs what other Magi offer.

HoHMC p.112 - "A Verditius magus’s creations are precious, each produced by the sweat and toil of its maker. Some go so far as to claim them as children; an enchanted sword is a son of its creator, while a magical brooch might be referred to as a daughter. Even a low-powered bauble, an earring that enchants its wearer with a pleasant image or a fork that spices every morsel of food, is a coveted treasure and proudly displayed until it is sold, traded, or given as a gift. Powerful items are more precious than all the gold in Spain and are jealously retained and guarded. If these items are for sale, the price is quite high. Though the item might be gone, the emotional attachment lingers. It is not unheard of for a Verditius magus to engineer the theft of a coveted item previously sold for an enormous sum."

Should a Magi dishonor a Verdi object, by displaying it improperly, not maintaining it properly or re-selling it at a discount price, Verdi might take a Vendetta against you!

W

10

"You know, I might just visit the Rusticani instead. Maybe their work isn't as fancy, but they're cheaper and they're not all nutcases." Timothy of Oxford, overheard at Stonehenge Tribunal, 1215