Warping and Multiple Traditions

So, I have a question. If a character had one parent who was a practitioner of a certain Hedge Magic (let's say Graugachan, for this example), and the other parent was a Viktir (putting aside how they got together, since the Mother has both the Gentle Gift, and is Unaffected by the Gift), and they had, or adopted a Gifted child. If they opened the runes for the child at age 5 (Viktir tradition), then immediately afterwards also opened them to the Graugachan Arts (and since the Viktir runes don't actually result from Virtues, you're only looking at an Opening Total of 24, which is achievable)(also, am I getting the math right there? Double 12?), then they would have access to both traditions. Now, would the child actually be able to learn runes at that point (since the -15 Source Quality penalty is only for Abilities from what I can tell, and the Viktir runes are Arts), and if so, would she also be able to learn the Graugachan Arts (Since they have Abilities, and would be subject to the -15 penalty).

Additionally, which version of Warping would the girl suffer under? Natt-thel, or Transformation?

Serf's Parma, but I thought there was something somewhere that stated you use the warping method for whatever your first mystical tradition is.

Really I haven't seen anything that indicates you can have multiple traditions. You can be opened in one tradition, but after that you are initiating virtues, not being re-opened. Not sure how that works for hedge traditions joining the order....

There is stuff about being re-opened in HMRE.

HMRE, and RM both have sections on Opening someone to a tradition even if they've been opened to another:

So it is definitely possible, I was more wondering about how feasible it would be (and the Warping question)

They wouldn't take the penalty for either, as their gift is open to both.

The penalty only applies to learning an ability from nothing, once you have a score in the relevant ability you no longer take any penalty to learning it (hence Hermetic Magi with second sight still being able to practise it). By opening their gift, you have ensured they have a score (of 0) in all relevant arts and abilities.

As far as I can find there's no hard and fast rule on this, other than that Twilight and Divine Warping over-rule other forms of warping.

Perhaps the RoP:tI and RoP:tD can point us in the right direction. (Faerie is always weaker than the other three.) Those books say the method should be negotiated if there is a question (Infernal/Magic or Divine/Magic). I had thought Divine was always stronger than Magic, but apparently Warping can still go either way. I don't believe there is a suggestion in either case to go with the first thing. Rather, the choice should be negotiated with the troupe and I had the impression the choice should generally go to whichever fits the character more. Toward which does this child lean, Graugachan or Viktir?

Among magic traditions, Hermetic (twilight) > others, but there's no rule about precedence among others. Twilight is usually advantageous, but not always. (Looking at you, o Sahirs.)

As always, it's up to the troupe. This is a rather unusual circumstance, so maybe you could even make it so that they get an interesting combination Warp effect.

Divine is stronger than Magic, but sometimes gentler. It is also stronger than the Infernal yet often (usually?) gives way.

ponders Thematically, I like the idea of being less precise with Divine/Magic and Infernal/Magic interactions. As a magus (for example) becomes holier, maybe he experiences Twilight less often; as he slides deeper into infernalism and depravity, maybe he experiences vituperation more often. If Magic, representing essential nature, is static and consistent, both the Divine and Infernal are active forces in the world (although pure outside it) and fluctuate with their current influence.

So I like every instance of gaining 2+ wp to be considered on its own. But quickly. :slight_smile:

As you responded directly to my quote saying this, I'm assuming you mean strength as I stated it being about dominance of Warping. RoP:F says if you could undergo Faerie Calling or the equivalent from another realm, you always undergo the version from the other realm. Thus my statement about Faerie being the weakest. RoP:tI and RoP:tD each say that between Magic (Twilight or whatever other kind) and Vituperance/Divine Ascent it can go either direction. So Magic is equal in strength to the Divine/Infernal in the sense of Warping as I was using it. I'm not sure if we can compare Vituperance and Divine Ascent directly. Can you actively have access to things that would grant each? Can you have True Faith or access to the other relevant Divine things at the same time as having access to those Infernal things? I would think to gain access to those Infernal things you would have to be out of the necessary state of grace required to undergo Diving Ascent.

Now, if this thread and my comment weren't specifically about Warping, then I could definitely see saying Divine is the strongest based on other things. But that's not what we're looking at here.

The reason I mentioned the stuff from the other RoP books is that in some cases we're told which way to go and in the other cases we're told it could go either way and to decide by troupe. As the two Magic types being discussed in the OP seem to be of equal strength (neither being Hermetic), then it would seem RoP:tI and RoP:tD provide the appropriate method.

As for splitting things like you suggested, not everything works very well that way. Some could, like Vituperation and Twilight. But others don't at all, like Divine Form with anything, unless you keep multiple different Warping Scores going.


I intentionally responded to you, and although I overloaded "strength," I do believe we are having the same conversation.

Having access to Divine and Infernal abilities: Some guy starts off being a sinner, acquires True Faith and Divine abilities yet still has all those other abilities, along with demons tempting him to sin and use them. Or, some holy man draws the attention of demons who "gift" him with nasty stuff; perhaps he thinks he is learning more holy things but, say, one of those judge-y demons is really teaching him Infernal nastiness. Or.... so now we have a character, neither Divine nor Infernal since his Destiny is yet undetermined, with abilities that can supercharge his journey in either direction, and maybe he has personality traits to match (ie Very Generous but Very Wrathful). This might be possible in some Divine traditions and not others, or even varies from person to person (Abelard loses his powers and Basil does not, perhaps because Basil or Basil's tradition believes/recognizes that he is completely steeped in imperfection and sin regardless, or....)

Indeed, if we are talking about other things, the Divine is strongest because omnipotence tends to win.

As for Divine Form with Twilight (and/or Vituperation), why not? A single Warping score is used for any event, which is always only of one kind.

We are then consistent, I think, with the following:

A character who "goes off the deep end" by gaining 2+ Warping Points:

  • Always prefers Twilight over any other magic-aligned process, if his Hermetic Arts have been opened
  • Has exactly 1 of 3 (iirc) Divine processes, which is determined the first time he goes off the deep end in a Divine way
  • Never suffers from Faerie Calling if he has a process associated with any other realm
  • Can only go off the deep end in a way to which he is "open"

The rest seems pretty open, depending on the character and saga.

Ovarwa is quite right.

But often I would say than the Warping Source is important, I can imagine that just like the after effects are quite differnt if you are one Metinita and suffer the Faerie botchs or the Arts implied on botching certain spell, the Tradition can affect the Warping reaction too.

Except that you have just contradicted yourself here. Divine Form and Divine Unity, while they have events, are partly also based purely on Warping Score. Divine Gloom is more of an event, so that would be fine. The problem you have with Divine Form with what you've stated is that since Divine Form is partly based on only Warping Score, a Twilight event would also be part of Divine Form. Divine Form is not separable from Warping Score the way the event-only types are. Thus, as long as you're working with a single Warping Score, you cannot do either-or with Divine Form. The same is true for Divine Unity. With them there is no way to consider every instance of gaining 2+ Warping Points on its own. If you switch to two Warping Scores, though, you can make them truly separable.

Hmm. I dont have my RoPD handy, and I don't understand at all what you mean. (Perhaps the one explains the other!)

I'm saying that there is a single Warping Score, which effects the frequency and effect of any Warping event that occurs. (Higher Warping means more likely to trigger whatever event happens for most types, less easy to benefit from, sometimes increases little-m magnitude of effect, etc.)

So when I get a Divine Form effect, I just do what the numbers tell me. Why does this not work?

Because outside of having time away from the world, the effects of Divine Form are based on the current Warping Score, not from something that is picked up away from the world (significant difference when compared to Vituperation or Twilight). So if the Warping Score increases (really, gains any points) and a magus goes through Twilight, then you have given the benefits of Divine Form as well as having the magus go through Twilight. You have only skipped the time away from the world part of Divine Form, not all of it.

Here's the nonexistent (stick with me here) RoP:tI vs. Magic equivalent: A Hermetic magus gets lots of points of Warping from an Infernal source. The magus undergoes Vituperation (tying the experience to the Warping, as you suggested). In addition to the Vituperation, the magus gains a Minor Virtue and a Twilight Scar from Twilight. Huh? I thought we were avoiding Twilight, going with Vituperation. Yes, but you still get the benefits without going into Twilight.

That odd bit in the end about avoiding Twilight yet still getting the results from being in it happens with the way two of the three types of Divine Ascent work if you try to tie the experience to the Warping's source while not tracking different Warping Scores. Is that clearer?


Hmm. Some of the RoP:X rules get strange and convoluted (to me), and I don't have my books handy, so let's see if I have it clear now:

Divine Form has continual interesting effects based on Warping Score; in a sense, Divine Form happens to a person once, and there is (perhaps) an implied assumption that of course any other warping incidents can be of no other kind.

So if a Hermetic Magus of the Divine Form (either a Criamon or an insufferable Tytalus, naturally) has a Twilight episode, he gets the effects of both Twilight and DF.

Is this your concern?

(parenthetical grin (but I repeat myself)

There's a character lurking here, Culus Christi of Tytalus: Sure, he's an asshole, but he's God's asshole. It's all in a good cause, he always comes up smelling like roses, or at least like the fertilizer that is making those roses grow, and you can't kill him no matter how much you want to because then he'll come back even more saintly and insufferable....)

Oh, so he's Harry Dresden.

Hmm. I don't see Harry as an asshole or insufferable; he's too much of a pushover, socially.