Weal integration breakthrough

The comparison with Holy Magic is uncorrect. The former does not entail risk of failure, unless the caster botches, whileas Weal still requires a recovery roll.

Holy magic has chance of casting botch as much as the faerie spell (though mastered spell could negate tiis perhaps).

Considering how easy it is to get bonus to recovery rolls and wound penalties no longer apply to the recovery rolls, They are rarely failed. Any mage with the arts to do these level 25+ fast healing spells can easily give +12 to the recovery roll for a day or +15 for diameter (which is mroe than long enough for a non-ritual healing spell) as level 20 healing spell.

Well, faerie wizardry Rituals don't need vis, just require ceremonial casting, so it's possible that if you managed to translate the guideline to Hermetic magic the resulting spell wouldn't need vis either. But it's intended for a type of faerie hedge wizard healing that feels different from Hermetic magic, and maybe if it incorporated Sympathy into the spell like the various Merinita mysteries I'd be okay with it. I also think the resulting spell would be either Muto or Rego Corpus instead of Creo Corpus, which is kind of neat.

Anyway, yes, Holy Methods and Powers can heal without vis, and Holy Magic can substitute fatigue for vis. Miraculous powers can even heal without possibility of a botch (they use a simple die). I think this is the Divine's province, to tap into the power of unlimited creation. Also, infernal powers can also heal without vis, usually by causing injury and harm to another, though it works better when you get a demon to do it, otherwise you probably have to have a coven or do a lot of preparation beforehand.

The boundary between Rego and Creo for "making a thing do something it can already do but faster or better" is a vague one. In this case, however, I'd say that enhancing the natural facility for healing is firmly Creo. Rego enhances natural changes (hides to leather, for instance) and Muto handles unnatural changes, whereas this is returning to the (better) original.

I don't really think a spell improving recovery times is at all outside the bounds of normal Hermetic magic. On the other hand, the use of such a spell should certainly preclude the possibilty of mundane aid to the healing, so unless you want to stack spells for a bonus to recovery with the high level accellerated healing and thus risk serious warping, I can't see it being too popular with anyone except the Flambeau. Better to accept longer in bed with an excellent chance of recovery then immediate recovery with things possibly getting worse and/or Twilight

Well, I do think that this guideline ought to be translated to Hermetic magic as a Merinita mystery, and they do include a form of Sympathy in use of the Faerie Magic charms, even if they are rather broader in scope and flexibility than faerie hadege magic Sympathy, as it befits the nature of Hermetic magic. I also think that translating faerie wizardry rituals as a form of ceremonail casting that does not require vis, only time would be a neat compromise. It's the need for vis that really, really, really needs to go if Hermetic healing magic has to be substantially improved.

Honestly I cannot tell whether this guidelines should become Creo or Muto in Hermetic magic. I think that Rego is probably unfit, since this magic in all likelihood boosts healing times beyond what would be the maximum theoretical efficiency of mundane healing in optimal conditions.

Unfortunately, neither Holy magic nor infernal powers can be efficiently adapted to Hermetic powers, lest they impose crippling limitations to mages or put their lives to dire risk. Only non-Hermetic Magic and Faerie hedge magic can be used effectively to improve Hermetic theory.

But in this case, the spell does not heal by directly making the healing, it boosts a natural faculty to innatural levels of efficiency. I can see the case for making it a Muto spell.

I agree that using an Hermetic Weal spell would prevent mundane aid to healing, but as you mention it is always possible to stack spells for a bonus to recovery with the accelerated healing (which already prevents the possibility of getting worse). Stacking two spells slightly increasing the risk of botching, yes, but it does not give any automatic warping (it's still two separated stacked spells, not a single bigger one). So I can see Hermetic Weal becoming a rather popular healing method in covenants that have Merinita members. How many mages would prefer lingering in bed for weeks and months, and wasting all that lab/adventuring time, when a quick ceremonial spell can put them back on their feets in a few hours (plus the time that it needs to fashion the temporary or permanent charm, although I would expect that in many cases Merinita mages would fashion and store permanent Hermetic Weal charms of themselves, familiars, apprentices, sodales, and important coverfolk) ?

Creo governs making things age more swiftly until physical maturity, after which Perdo then ages them past it. A blunt sword is made perfectly sharp with CrTe, whilst MuTe(An) would make a sword which could cut anything whilst made of butter. The spell here improves your ability to heal. More importantly, Muto effects cannot ever be permanent, and impermanent healing is already possible and is Creo.

For a spell to swiftly heal a serious (ie. greater than Light) wound, the spells begin to approach sixth or seventh magnitude. As such, for it to be safely used on a magus without causing warping, it would need to be designed for him. In the dire situations there, the magus is unlikely to be able to cast it upon himself with ease (or without many botch dice), and so the covenant would require everyone to know multiple versions of the spell for every member if it were to be commonly used. Either that, or one person would need to master them and create casting tablets, but that again is very risky, botch wise. Yes, the point at which spells cause warping is vague, but to my mind when you are using a base guideline of 25 or 30 then it's probably time to seriously consider it.

I see your argument, yet here the spell amplifies a natural faculty, and spells that do so at innatural levels are Muto (e.g. the ones that improve sight or hearing, or skin toughness). Moreover, natural effects of Muto spells that occur while the magic is active are not nullifed after the spell ends. A wound healed by super-quick regeneration is healed by the body, not by the magic itself, so when the spell ends, it is to stay, just like a sword-blow repelled by super-tough skin does not retroactively opens a wound when the spell ends. Hoenstly, there are valid arguments to make this either a Cr or a Mu guideline.

Well, this is mostly true, but a Merinita mage can still heal a Medium wound instantly on another person with a Touch, Momentary spell or an Heavy wound on himself or his familiar as a Personal, Momentary spell as a fifth magnitude spell, which does not cause Warping. If the Merinita masters the spell (as he's most likely to do, if he can master spells at all), casting all but the most powerful Weal spells on himself is not that much risky, even with Wound penalties. Such spells could be enchanted in the Talisman, to heal the magus himself more safely, or in enchanted objects, to heal other characters, if the Merinita is not at hand. All that would be necessary is to have the appropriate charms of the patient at hand. Actually Weal integration as a Merinita Mystery would make the House the healing specialists of the Order, and greately enhance the House's influence and numbers within the Order (and vs. the mundanes).

Except what I think is going on here is that recovery time is being stretched, like making a person or a plant age to maturity. That's Rego if it uses natural processes to do it, which this does. Muto handles unnatural changes like making something larger or smaller, and has a very appropriate faerie flavor, actually changing the target into something else for the duration. Creo, of course, improves the target and thus is usually appropriate for healing. I'd probably let the person designing the ritual decide which it is, since the character has invested so much in Virtues to be able to cast it.

Stacking the two spells adds nothing to the risk of botching. If you are not rushed and have no reason to be stressed, both spells would use simple die. You improve the wound two steps first casting, two more second casting (so two castings of a non-ritual spell), diameter for the boost spell is all you need. No spell is greater than level 25 (base 10, +1 touch, +1 diameter for the recovery boost and base 20 +1 touch for the quick healing two levels) so there is no warping and you are casting with simple dice since it is non-stress situation.

This leaves only the high modifier recovery roll that can botch and that could botch regardless when healing naturally. Suddenly incap wounds are meaningless to healers with these spells. Nothing less than death slows people down more than a few minutes.

The Muto Spells you speak of change you to possess a faculty, rather than amplifying a natural one. Eyes of the Cat, for instance, changes you to have the eyes and thus sight of a cat. A spell to grant you the ability to regenerate like a D&D troll is definitely Muto, and probably a much easier spell to cast. (That's as well as it beng within the scope of normal hermetic magic, too, come to think of it, unless rapid healing is verboten in setting rather than merely dealing with the Limit of Creation, and I'm fairly sure it isn't. The problem with a well defined magic theory and system is that it allows things like this to slip through.) A spell which causes you to do so for a specific wound, making your healing abilities better but not making them different, is Creo to my mind.

Yes. Though I'm not arguing against the existence of the guidelines. I'm arguing that they already exist in general, albeit in an unwritten manner, due to nature of both hermetic magic and the fact that the published guidelines are both explicitly incomplete and guidelines. I admit that my opinion that such healing would incur warping because, amongst other things, the high levels (the sixth magnitude is given as an example, and I hold that healing effects are powerful magic, whereas I don't think a simple illusion, even if pushed to sixth magnitude by hefty ranges and durations and the AC target should, since it's a trivial effect), is merely opinion and can be regarded as an house rule. I think they'd be less favoured because they don't eliminate the need for a recovery roll, and thus are riskier than the more normal curative magic.

Yes and no. Botch dice are explicitly judged on a case by case basis. Firstly, I don't believe treating a wound can ever be regarded as unstressed, especially not your own - the penalties for failure are too great. Doctors are paid a fortune and frequently wash out depressed, overworked and addicted to various things for a reason. Secondly, adding multiple things on top of each other is the classic manner in which the consequences of failure are worsened. So yes, possibly in this case I'm being more harsh than some would be, but in keeping with both the letter and spirit of the rules, requiring warping and additional botch dice are perfectly legitimate. Since I can't see a reason why these guidelines are not possible to normal hermetic magic, breaking as they do no Limits nor thematic limitations, I'm in part justifying why they might not be popular in setting. Truthfully, however, I suspect it's because noone thought of it and discussed or published it before now.

Well, of course, Faerie magic itself would be a prerequisite for this Virtue, but I cannot see any other Merinita Mystery Virtue being a prerequisite for this Virtue. Which level would you rate this Hermetic Mystery Virtue to be, oh mighty sage of all things faerie ? Minor or Major? If this truly allows to cast all Hermetic Weal spells as ceremonial, not ritual, only with charms as a prerequisite, the scope is limited (much lesser than Hermetic Rune Magic), but the improvement to Hermetic healing and anagathic magic is very substantial. I cannot decide whether this Virtue is more akin to Arcadian Travel or Spell Timing, or to Glamour and Animae Magic, in value.

And how would you name such a Virtue ? I would be inclined to use Hermetic Weal.

All such spells and guidelines are Creo spells that I know of, Conjure the Sturdy Vine being the one in the core rules.

The reason I think this is important is that if that is allowed, Creo becomes reduced entirely to the Technique for making things ex nihilo. Everything else it does can be folded into Rego. Perdo likewise becomes solely for disintegration, since by that logic, Rego Corpus can turn the tiniest scratch or itch into a festering wound consuming the whole body. It feels to me like an application of modern sensibilities and knowledge to a universe in which those beliefs and that knowledge is wrong. Rego cannot make a thing better, only different, not because we cannot in the modern world conceive of a way to do that using strict definitions of the words, but because Rego is a magical thing and distinct from Creo. Healing in mythic europe actually involves the humours, for instance, and Rego can shift them around to favour or disfavour healing, but not actually close the wound.

For a purely Faerie power, the limitations of hermetic magic are irrelevent. The Faerie changing power might not be limited in the same way, but in that case it is not Muto, merely something given a similar name.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't let the person designing the spell choose the Technique for this spell, because what I really like about Ars Magica and Mythic Europe is the self-contained universe in which the different physics and reality make things ... well, interesting. It requires a very different mindset and gives rise to fun complications and ideas. This is not to say you can't use different techniques to achieve the same goal, but you need to go about it in different ways. A Muto Terram spell to turn all but the ore in a hill to water, washing away and leaving it behind (until it solifies back to earth) has the same desired goal as a Rego Terram spell which moves and sorts the dirt (which doesn't have the lack of control of the muto, for instance) or the Perdo Terram spell which destroys everything except the ore (thus permanently destroying a large quantitiy of earth). They all get the same desired result, but all have different side effects and are not all equally easy. You can skin a cat with Perdo Animal and Muto Animal, but the cat will survive for the duration of the second spell, and there are 48 other ways of going about it.

Regeneration healing is not surely forbidden in the setting, since there are many non-Hermetic ways of doing rapid healing without vis, and there is nothing in the known logic and structure of Hermetic system that may forbid it, it is OOC discouraged by a legacy developmental ruling, likely (one that I find unreasonably harsh and very questionable), which is likely why published guidelines and example spells have never explicitly acknowledged that vanilla Hermetic magic can do it. If you wish a comparison, it's likely P2P, you can do it, but the Powers that Be don't want to acknowledge it exists if they can avoid it.

Hm, IMO barring truly exceptional cases, sixth magnitude should be an absolute lower ceiling to what should be deemed "powerful magic" for the purpose of Warping, making an exception for something so vanilla and routine in fantasy gameplay as healing magic is really unfair to ArM characters, as it may substantially cut down the lifespan of characters that often go adventuring. No, it should not be ever done IMO. Normal curative magic still consumes a lot of vis that could be used much more gainfully to create Longevity Rituals, to make a typical example, or at most can keep the characters temporarily healed till they can return to the covenant and then waste seasons of study lingering in bed. Of course, that does not take troll-like regeneration spell into account, but otherwise, rapid healing spells would be generally seen as much superior to normal curative magic by the vast majority of mages and covenants. The need for a recovery roll does not outweigh many pawns of vis or seasons of study wasted.

Again, I may see some justification to keep this kind of spells always cast as stress rolls, but requiring warping if one stacks separate spells as if they were a single bigger one is going against the letter and spirit of the rules to make things unreasonably difficult for characters, something a GM should never do. Clever mage characters should never be unfairly penalized for devising clever solutions to the limitations of Hermetic magic, in order to do something that is not blatantly unbalancing, which rapid healing surely does not. If any single spell or effect is not sixth magnitude or higher, is not powerful for the purpose of Warping, period.

I don't think the warping should be because multiple spells are stacked, but because the spells are high level and not generally tailored to the specific target. The standard guidelines cure instantly (with casting time) at the cost of vis. The proposed ones cure quickly, but with risk, and no vis cost. Both, for non-planned targets, cause warping. The stacking effect should, in my opinion, add botch dice. You're using one curative spell to affect the results of another, and the consequences for getting that wrong should be proportionately worse.

Rapid healing is not unbalancing, but it is differently balancing. It heavily favours adventurous magi unless the healing also entails risk, and that is the express purpose of grogs and companions - the allow players to go out and do things and experience mortality. Grogs were added to the game to die, driving home the dangers whilst not necessarily killing the magus in whom the player has invested so much time and effort. Making these spells easy thus requires a major change to the setting. My postulations are reasons why, when they should exist, they're not as often used. Warping, for a magus, is slow death. One lost season is nothing compared to being pushed into twilight by a botched healing spell and gaining flaws and additional warping.

How do you feel about this spell:
Cute Colourful Kittens - CrIm45
Creates purple illusions of kittens which romp all over the target for a year, not disappearing even when prodded.
(Base 5, +4 Arcane Connection, +4 Year)
Using only a magnitude metric, this would cause warping on the target as soon as it was cast, despite being a trivial effect, and a further point during the year. By the same argument, why should a healing spell cast on yourself not warp (assuming it was not designed for yourself) but the same effect do so if used on someone you touch or across the room. Spell levels are a crude but useful measure of both the magical power of a spell and its difficulty, and penetration could also be argued to reflect the power of a spell.

I wholeheartedly agree that clever magi and players should not be punished, but I do believe that there should be consequences for those choices. A spell to mine using the Muto Terram spell I mentioed upthread will work, and the magi will become rich. They'll also flood the nearby valley with concrete, and this will have story repurcussions.

Sorry, we're addressing several different circumstances here, so things can get a bit confused. :slight_smile: Here I'm talking about a magus who has some sort of Faerie Sympathy, a Faerie Method, and the Weal Power. Said magus can cast Weal effects as Hermetic Rituals, and the rules state that these use the appropriate Arts. I'm saying I'd probably allow CrCo, ReCo, or MuCo for these spells with a good rationale (the regenerative ability of faeries, for example).

Talking about your idea for adapting the Weal Power to a new Merinita Mystery that allows casting spells using the Weal guidelines without requiring vis, Hermetic Weal sounds like a good name, I concur. As a Mystery Virtue, I'd probably put it next to Perpetuity as Major, since you're removing both the need for a Faerie Method and Faerie Sympathy, and producing what is basically a permanent effect.

Isn't there a Rego Corpus guideline that says something like "Cause a child to grow to maturity in a single night"?

I understand your concern, and I don't think normal Hermetic magic should be able to do this. Hermetic healing is Creo. However, doing wacky faerie things to the body could certainly use a different Technique, as long as there are appropriate Virtues to justify it. For example, a Merinita with the Glamour Mystery can temporarily heal a person using a MuIm spell.

No, not in the core at least, but there is a Creo Herbam one which is "Bring a plant to maturity in single day or night" which stipulates that the accellerated grown occurs only when the spell is active, and higher guidelines for faster growth. The equivalent Creo Corpus is a level 30 guideline.

Right. My point though is that with integration into Hermetic magic, the healing things should remain under Creo since to do otherwise is ... clunky. As for the Mystery that is Glamour, I've seen what that can do to a saga, and didn't like it much. ::shrugs:: I don't think I disagree with anyone here save on details.

Creo, huh? Wow, I don't know why I thought that was Rego. I guess because, well, never mind. You're totally right.

I guess so. I certainly wouldn't want it as part of Perdo, which is the other Technique that deals with aging. Still, it means that casting Weal powers using Sympathy and Hermetic magic is strictly worse than just using Hermetic magic. I think I'd still be inclined to allow those Rituals to use Muto just for the variety. :slight_smile:

Again, I may have little objections for adding botch dice for stacjing spells. But I think that ruling a fourth or fifth magnitude rapid-healing spell, a "powerful" one, for the purpose of Warping, is totally unreasonble and unfair, both in the view of magic system inner logic and gameplay. No-vis quick-healing are nowhere that unbalanced and disruptive.

Grogs and the supposed mortality they embody are not that terribly important to gameplay, really. No-grog or all-mage (if you count Mythic Compasions as such) parties are a valdi and in my knowledge farily popular gameplay option anyway. Adventurous magi gain the most from vis-less rapid healing, sure, but OOC they are the near-totality of PC magi, and IC even lab rats stand to gain from them, getting quick and unexpensive healing from lab accidents and the like. As for the mortality angle, rapid healing does not really change the risk of dying in battle, they only cut down the time one lies useless in a bed, or the risk of being felled down by cumulative wounds in successive combats. One may find them worthwhile sources of drama, in my experience and opinion they are typically but a boring and annoying drag and stumbling block to real drama. a character should either die heroically in combat or be quickly back on their feet by the time next lifeìor-death confrontation shows up. The main consequences to the setting, besides the above, is that Hermetic mages become rather more popular to the mundanes they can provide "miracolous" healing. A significant change, sure, but hardly a world-disrupting one. I would point out that in ArM 5th ed. the setting is no longer supposed to stay static forever, as the power of Hermetic magic goes, several sourcebooks are chock-full of possible research advances to Hermetic mages with guidelines for the likely effect on the setting and related adventure ideas.

Hermetic Weal would surely not worse, as setting changes go, than being able to churn out customer Gifted babies on command or traveling anywhere in the world without Arcane Connections.

Hmm, sincerely in my experience, Twilight and Warping points from botches are hardly that frequent or threatening as you imply, unless one pruposefully picks Flaws or situations that give a lot of extra botch dice. In more than a year of regular play, I'm challenged to remember one occasion when a mage character got Warping points from a botch, much less went into Twilight. Spells dramatically botching at a really bad moment and landing the group in methaphorical hot water, yet, that happened fairly frequently, but Warping and Twilight, hardly.