What can Magic Sensitivity actually do?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Hi all. I think this has been discussed before but I wondered if either a consensus had been reached or people might be willing to share what their common rulings are for this Virtue.

I've looked through all the books and from what I can find, Magic Sensitivity seems a bit confusing. I think in part, it's because Magic and 'magic' are two different things which aren't necessarily used consistently in the Core book, or even in later books. The first (capital 'M') I interpret as referring to anything aligned with the Magic Realm, including Powers, spells, creatures with Magic Might, auras, etc.

The second ('magic'), I interpret as anything supernatural, regardless of Realm affiliation.

Now looking at the virtue, it seems to do the following things:

  1. Detect a Magic aura (capital 'M')
  2. Detect spells and enchanted items (presumably regardless of Realm)
  3. Detect magical creatures with Magic Might (confusing)
  4. See into any regio, regardless of Realm
  5. Detect vis (of any Realm?)
  6. Reduces Magic Resistance across the board (as opposed to the 'Susceptible' Flaws which only reduce MR against specific aligned Powers).

These are from the Core book, though #5 is discussed in Hedge Magic Revised Edition.

Realms of Power: Faerie backs up #4 by saying anyone with Magic Sensitivity can see into a Faerie regio and navigate Faerie trods.

Antagonists has Bishop Orris who possesses Magic Sensitivity. It says he can detect any manifestations of the Divine, Infernal, and Magic Realms, but he also has the Sense Holiness and Unholiness Virtue so I'm assuming that's why he can detect Divine and Infernal manifestations. His inability to detect Faerie manifestations suggests Magic Sensitivity can't allow him to do that.

I'm quite happy with the ability of Magic Sensitivity to see through any regio regardless of Realm. I think that's clear.

I'm assuming it can detect vis of any kind, regardless of which Realm it is aligned to. In my view, all vis is essentially Magic-aligned anyway, just 'flavoured' differently if it's been exposed to other Realms.

I would like to say it can detect spells and enchanted items regardless of the Realm that is the source of such Powers, but if anyone has a good counterargument I'm glad to hear it, especially given Bishop Orris cannot.

The biggest confusion I have is whether it can detect magical creatures with Might Scores belonging to the Divine, Faerie, or Infernal Realms, and also whether it can detect non-Magic auras.

I feel like the simplest answer, especially given the Virtue reduces all MR (and not just against specific Realm Powers), is to say Magic Sensitivity is really 'Supernatural Sensitivity' and allows one to detect manifestations from at least the Faerie, Magic, and Infernal Realms, and potentially the Divine too.

But is that too powerful? I know it's only a Minor Virtue so it might be too strong to say it can do almost everything as long as it's vaguely 'supernatural' in some way.

Appreciate any thoughts.

2

Overpowered? The virtue is exceptionally weak, because the difficulty numbers are ridiculously high.

Based purely on definitive edition, it can only spot magic, not the other 4 realms. I would give it anything, because what it does is trivial.

At the point a magic aura is 4+, any magi should be able to work out the subtle differences in a high magic aura without needing a special ability.

Magical creatures tend to look magical. Maybe a might 5 cat might sneak by. Rolling an 8 on the simple die, the sensitive guy (assuming per + magic sens = 6). works it out.

To identify an item with a level 50 power in it, a 5 is required on the simple die. I would think an item with level 50 power, would be nearly glowing or be so ornately made, or some other tell, that nearly anyone could work out it is magic.

The power does not say what the magic in the item/spell is, just that the item/spell is magic. It does not say the strength of the aura, just that one exists. It does not see in to a regio, just says there's something magical there.

Sorry, but this ability is as useful as Troi in Star Trek. It tells you what any trivially skilled person would already know.

3

Like most supernatural abilities, its not really useful for Hermetic Mages; most of what it can do is easily duplicated with InVi spells. Invest them into an item or familair if you want the ability active all the time.

However, from the perspective of most hedge traditions its both more useful as they don't have InVi and the drawback of reducing Magic Resistance doesn't matter as they don't have the Parma. For them I think its pretty balanced as a minor virtue. It might even be useful for beings of Might as they are more limmited, though they MR reduction would effect them.

I think your changes would make it too powerful for a minor virtue from their perspective.

4

I wouldn't run Magic Sensitivity the way you've interpreted it because otherwise the Ability might as well not exist.

I do agree the Ease Factors are high, but ideally someone who possessed the ability would work on it quite a bit. Like a hedge wizard looking to find vis, or a redcap who wants to know whether they're picking up magic items or not, or a spirit master who wants to be able to sense invisible spirits.

5

That does seem to be the consensus so maybe I'll just restrict it to Magic Powers. At best, I'll say it can sense Faerie Powers too, but I think the example given in the book discounts that.

It's just a little strange to me that it can do things like see into any regio according to the Core book (or at the very least, peer into Magic and Faerie regiones) but is more restricted when it comes to things with non-Magic Might, or non-Magic Powers. Seems inconsistent.

6

Yes, it does feel inconsistent. I'd suggested giving it clarity ("magic" = "Magic" or "magic" = "supernatural" in DE. And it has been given clarity. But the regio part wasn't adjusted to match.

7

I believe I've gone with what the core rules suggest. I will repeat, the ability as written is incredibly weak. I used +6 as an example. Even with a +9 which is meant to be a master of the skill, there are more fails than successes.

I would recommend reducing all ability checks by 3, or at least give more detail, because the checks are so hard. Say what the aura might is. What type of magic is in the item. Not the actual spell, but say it is an ignem effect, etc.

Magic sensitivity is in desperate need of a house ruling.

8

Magic sensitivity is not very fun, so I'll give it anything it can have. The "magic =supernatural" vs"Magic" debate still not being fixed in DE is bad and I readhere that it remains... so sad.

9

Oh don't get me wrong, I think your interpretation of Magic Sensitivity is largely fine and consistent with the material, I just think I wouldn't say magic things are so obvious that Magic Sensitivity becomes useless. Vis in particular shouldn't be easily identifiable without magic. And I would say it's useful to be able to detect magical things even if you don't know what they are or how they function.

I also suppose that it being aligned to Magic lets people distinguish between Faerie and Magic "things" given that's not always obvious.

The power to see through regiones is the one thing I'm confident Magic Sensitivity can grant. Of course, you could take Second Sight and do the same plus ignore the MR issue for a lot of what Magic Sensitivity covers, but Second Sight doesn't help you find vis.

10

Yeah, I agree. That said, I like the concept and I want to make it useful.

It's confusing because there's also the Comprehend Magic Major Virtue which does everything Magic Sensitivity can do and more, but which I honestly feel is overcosted as a Major Virtue.

11

In my experience they barely overlap. They can both see the ways through regio borders. They could both detect a Magic spirit, one by sensing the Might and the other by seeing the naturally invisible thing. They could both detect a Magic illusion, one by sensing the effect and one by seeing through the illusion. But generally Second Sight won't let you detect most the stuff Magic Sensitivity allows, while Magic Sensitivity has to deal with penetration and so fails much of the time where it might replicated Second Sight.

12

Magic sensitivity allows grogs or companions to tell how much vis is in something, which can be handy for a redcap or covenfolk (like my covenant autocrat in one of the PbP games here). It also gives grogs or companions a way to navigate regio borders. In practice, everyone takes Second Sight for its value in spotting invisible creatures and spirits by sight rather than having to sense them and infer where they are. It is only really used where a non-magus doing vis counting and collection is useful.

13

Not how I read it. They can tell if there is vis, but now how much. Also the required roll is so high, I would not trust a magically sensitive grog saying I sense no vis, to be accurate.

The core rule book states "You are often able to identify a place or object as magical."

Considering the setting, and that the lowest level InVi achieves the same as sensitivity, I would prefer it to be a virtue that just works with no roll.

They make the roll "I sense magic". You mean the 5 Pilums that were multicast at us? Thanks, genius.
And something less obvious, like Aura of Ennobled presence. I sense magic. Thank you, what magic. Um, I just get magic.

Such a bad virtue as written.

If it just works, one can have a magic sensitive grog walks around the land, and if it pings, investigate. Vis sources, an animal with magic might, etc, it has a purpose.

14

Let's not forget that you lose some RM. As if the virtue was not bad enough ^^'.

15

Well, the EF is only listed for detecting it, but elsewhere we do see more. Other traditions are identifying amounts and types in enough detail to use it. For example,

Settuten are able to find and identify vis using Magic Sensitivity... They categorize via according to their own magical paradigm. They favor... They can detect other types of vis for what it is, but cannot use it in their magic. (BS&S p.97)

16

"In the market may be spotted a dubious fellow by the name of Ladislaus. He is, in fact, a trusted companion of Roznov covenant (see below) and uses his Magic Sensitivity to spot and filter out any Gifted children among the slaves. They then find themselves delivered to Coeris, the domus magna of House Tremere in the Transylvanian Tribunal" GotF

"Masking the Odor of Magic

PeVi 34

R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Group

Pen 0, constant effect

Prevents the detection of any of the effects in this item by magic, unless the Intellego Vim spell is greater than 30th level. A character with the Magic Sensitivity Supernatural Ability must have a score of 6 or greater to detect the magic of this item.

(Base effect (5), +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +2 Group; +1 2/day, +3 environmental trigger)" MoH

"Any character with the Supernatural Ability Magic Sensitivity (ArM5, page 66) can detect whether an object contains vis; make a roll of Perception + Magic Sensitivity against an Ease Factor of (12 — the number of pawns of vis contained in the object). Some hedge traditions have alternative supernatural methods of detecting vis; for example Folk Witches may dowse for vis (see Chapter 3: Folk Witches)." HM

"At some point, Cupid should be discovered. Any characters with Second Sight can see through his disguise on a Perception + Second Sight + stress die roll against an Ease Factor of 10. Characters with Magic Sensitivity will not see Cupid, but may feel his presence on a roll of Perception + Magic Sensitivity + stress die against an Ease Factor of 11." ToME

W

17

I am really surprised to see a published case where Magic Sensitivity lets you detect the Gift - that doesn't seem consistent with the write-up of the virtue. Maybe the untrained children sometimes cause magical effects by accident?

18

To me it seems very consistent. One of the books talked about detecting the Gift with Hermetic magic akin to detecting other magic, which Magic Sensitivity does. Also, Magic Sensitivity is basically the first level of Comprehend Magic, and Comprehend Magic's first level does that.

This is huge. I really thought David was going to go the other direction when I brought up Magic Sensitivity's lack of clarity. In 5e I'd argued "magic" there is like magic resistance, working with all realms, and I'd used the regio rules to show that it could detect more than just one realm. This Cupid quote has Magic Sensitivity detecting more Faerie stuff than just region like it does Magic stuff. That just adds to my earlier argument that Magic Sensitivity's "magic" is referring to any realm. But now it's really inconsistent with the change in one spot of DE and not in the other place in DE and not in ToME.

19

"Magical creatures tend to look magical. Maybe a might 5 cat might sneak by. Rolling an 8 on the simple die, the sensitive guy (assuming per + magic sens = 6). works it out."

Did it really work ? isn't the magic cat also had a MR 5 you need to pass with this ability, or did i miss something ?

I ask because there is nothing clear about that, but if so, then detecting magicals beings seems just impossible because of the EF + MR.

20

Magic Sensitivity doesn't need to penetrate.