What does an itinerant Sahir do in Mythic Europe?

The Magical Court of Baron Geoffroi D´Arques (Antagonists, p. 8 ) has an itinerant Sahir as member. What happens if this man casts solomonic magic in the middle of Mythic Europe? Does he have access to his middle eastern spirit(s) here, too? And what happens, if he uses his Seeking Laboratory Activity (TC&TC, p. 40-41) at the Rhine Tribunal? Is he able to establish contact with a local european spirit? And if this is possible: Can he use this spirit for powering his magic, too? The insert at p. 61 (Other Middle Eastern Spirits: Non-Jinn) sounds, as this is not possible. In this case, Sahirs would be severely handicapped if they´d leave the Mythic Middle East. True?


I think it's entirely open to interpretation.

Are spirits "local"? Possibly - there are certainly locales where "the connection to the spirits" would be stronger, so why not weaker?

But absent entirely? I feel that if he's "Itinerant", he must have wandered here for a reason, and "to be unable to use his magic" doesn't strike me as a likely one. More, if a sorcerer cannot do magic, I don't think they'd get much traction in any court nor last very long, at least not as anything more than the butt of jokes.

Sahirs can be use any spirit than they can summmon, the more common power is of course Sihr than affect only to Jinni. This Itinerant Sahir could use Faerie Summoning or [Spirit] Summoning (from RoP - The Infernal; the Goetic Art) or maybe he is one Elementist with Theurgic Summoning, that powers would summon Spirits or demons, faeries or elemental spirits.
Anyway, the Sahir got Arcane connection to any spirit than he can summon via Summoning spell, and then he can summon, anywher he acctually lives or where he are going to be. Other optin, he have some virtue or flaw than grants him with one partner Jinni or spirit (Ghostly Warder, Magical Guard, Realm Jinn Companion, Realm Spirit Companion, Faerie Friend, etc).

First of all, I want to say, that I´m not interested to point out a problematic rule. I only want to understand the rules.

I think, at least Jinn are local. In “Jinn Defined Mechanically” (TC&TC, p. 62-63) we can read, that Jinn “are supernatural spirits native to the lands of the Dar al-Islam: the Levant, Iberia, the Maghreb, Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, Mesopotamia, Persia, and Transoxiana”. And later: “European spirits of the Faerie and Magic Realm familiar to Hermetic magi are definitely not jinn.”

I think, this is true. In TC&TC, p. 31 we find the insert “Other Summoning Arts” and the title already reveals, that the standard Sahir uses Sihr for summoning. The “others” can become member of the Order of Suleiman, too. But they´ll have some difficulties to stack up against their Sihr using brethren:

  1. Sihr is an accelerated ability. The “other summoning arts” are normal abilities.
  2. With the Solomonic art of Sihr you can create a Summoning Strength (something as an attack advantage for using Solomonic Magic).
    In my eyes a Sahir needs both possibilities to cast more than the most basic Naranjs.

Yes, this is correct, too. It means, that a Sahir with the Sihr Summoning Art can do, what he has learned in the Mythic Middle East. But in Mythic Europe he will still collect experience. He could summon more powerful Jinni – but there are none. So his capabilities will stagnate in Mythic Europe. (I think the “other option” [“he has some virtue or flaw that grants him one partner Jinni or spirit”] is nothing fundamentally different: In Mythic Europe the Sahir will be dependent of the Jinn or spirits he could summon in Mythic Middle East, too.)

That means, the Order of Suleiman has only one option for foreign assignment candidates: they send the Sahir with “Other Summoning Arts”. Just this Sahir are not very powerful.

Well, if I´d only search for a reason, why a Sahir should spent some time in Mythic Europe, I´d find one for sure. In TC&TC two interesting Solomonic Breakthroughs are listed: Solomonic Devices (Minor) and Spontaneous Solomonic Spells (Major). Perhaps an itinerant Sahir dwells in Mythic Europe for some time to collect some hermetic invested devices. Afterwards he goes home and makes them available for the Order of Suleiman to study. Or he searches for an hermetic magus, that teaches him “Magic Theory”. Then he goes home, starts to experiment (if he is ungifted perhaps with a fellow Sahir) and tries to develop spontaneous magic for Sahir.

In TC&TC we´re being told several times, that one possibility to integrate the content of the book into a saga is the exotic Sahir in Europe. This is possible, but I still think, the Sahir characters in Europe will have difficult times. My mental dead end arose from the idea the Order of Suleiman should be on a par with the Order of Hermes. After my reading of TC&TC, chapter 3 and 4, I think, the Order of Suleiman is more than able to defend his Mythic Middle Eastern Homelands, but the Order of Hermes is stronger if you compare the expansionary potential.

Glad to be corrected –

I made a mistake:

This isn´t correct. "Summoning" (as described in "Ars Goetia", Infernal, p. 114) may be learned like a Supernatural Ability but "increase as Arts". I have to think anew.


All the Summoning Arts are Accelerated Abilities (most of them) or Hedge Arts (the Elementalist at least, that need one cominatin of two one Art and one Difficult Art, since the Faerie Summoning is one "Art" just like the Solomonic or the Goetic and that are now considered just Accelerated). I can figure than one Itinerant Sahir use summoning methods more easily senn on Mythic Europe, but again, he can be one Gifted (easily in fact) and for that matter, then he wont be limited by the power of the summoned spirit to their naraanjs spells or summoning labs total. And again, all Sihr versions and summoning can make one spell with one Arcane Connection Range, so he can summon any spirit, from everywhere but probably the spirit will be on his side after a while, not so fast if he is just behind. Again, with one spirit companion he can use his spells anyway.

Yes, but even a gifted Sahir is not able to contact a previously unknown Jinn by using his Sihr ability in Mythic Europe. Hence my words about stagnation of characters like that.

Perhaps it is possible for a Sahir with Sihr to come to Mythic Europe and learn one of the "other summoning arts" there. That would mean he had to learn two Summoning arts (one for Mythic Middle East and one for Mythic Europe). In Mythic Europe he had to do without Summoning Strength... but the outlook isn´t as grim as I thought at the first glance.


Hmmm, I must have missed that... I'll have to go back and check.

OK, I didn't write the Sahir chapter (that was Erik Dahl), but I wrote the Jinn chapter and specifically I wrote that insert on page 61. That insert was specifically targeted to explain which entities / spirits that are affected by Solomonic Sihr (or Hermetic Sihr used by Ex-Misc Hermetic Sahir).

  1. The following discussion is for a Sihr that uses Solomonic Sihr, NOT another Summoning Art - see later. I'd note also that there are some Jinn in Mythic Europe esp in Andalusia (southern Iberia) and perhaps scattered through some of the older previously Islamic controlled areas (Sicily, Spain/Provence, Balearics, Corsica/Sardinia, Bari etc) or leftover/captured by Hermetics.

Solomonic Magic: Yes. Solomonic Magic is powered by the Summoning total. If the Sahir has already contacted the spirit and established a naranj this is effectively a formulaic spell and the distance is immaterial (Arcane Connection is not geographically limited).

Middle Eastern Spirits: IMO yes. If previously contacted not an issue esp if True Name known. Sihr works at Arcane Connection effectively. Where the Sahir is currently located is immaterial to their magic in my opinion Edit - this differs to what Erik clarifies below.

Seeking in the Rhine Tribunal: Difficult. European spirits are not Jinn. There are canonically no local Jinn, unless perhaps there is another sahir in the Rhine (unlikely but not impossible and would have to have unbound / uncontrolled jinn just hanging around) or there is a Hermetic magus that has collected some jinn as part of a magical menagerie. So using either of these with say Rhine Tribunal Lore or a similar "European" Area Lore will not work. However the RAW do not specify that the Sahir Seeks or Scours the area immediately around him, merely that he uses an Area Lore to perform either activity - so if he has Levant Lore but lives in Rhine, perhaps it is OK. I'd seek clarification from Erik on what he originally intended for this but given this all effectively acts at Arcane Connection range (via Solomonic Storytelling), I would personally allow the sahir to continue to Seek and Scour his homelands or areas with native Jinn. Edit - according to Erik, he intended that the Area Lore used be appropriate to the sahir's current location.

Contact Local Spirits: No. Sihr does not work for non-Jinn. Non-Jinn are defined by the insert on page 61.

Empowering Magic with non-Jinn spirit: IMO No. This is not possible for Sahir with Solomonic Sihr as they cannot control non-Jinn.

  1. If a Sihr uses another Summoning Art, the answers are determined by which spirits can be summoned using that Art. All of Solomonic Magic uses spirits, not specifically jinn and is powered by a Summoning Total which is based on the specific Summoning Art, not exclusively Sihr. So this then becomes:

Solomonic Magic: Yes. Solomonic Magic is powered by the Summoning total.

Middle Eastern Spirits: Yes. If previously contacted not an issue esp if True Name known. Whatever the Sahir using another Summoning Art can Summon can be affected - note this can include non-Jinn Middle Eastern spirits as not all Middle Eastern spirits are Jinn.

Seeking in the Rhine Tribunal: Edit - Yes. Seeking (and Scouring) are not specific to the Sihr Art, they are dependent on Solomonic Storytelling. Other Summoning Arts may have specific rules, but can help generate a Summoning Total that allows the use of Socuring and Seeking. My previous answer was due to a confusion between the specific power of Sihr vs the Lab Activity based on Solomonic Storytelling.

Contact Local Spirits: Yes. Within the limits of the other Summoning Art.

Empowering Magic with non-Jinn spirit: IMO Yes. Their Solomonic Magic is powered by their Summoning Art so their other activities can use any spirit they can control and are not limited to Jinn.

Hope this helps.

Erik may weigh in and I would consider his opinion the definitive answer.



...I think I've been summoned. :slight_smile:

In my opinion, yes, the sahir would be limited somewhat outside of the Middle East, because the only jinn he can likely summon with Sihr would be ones for which he has summoning spells, and he can't do any of his Solomonic magic without a jinni. But if he can summon a jinni, he can cast his spells through it anywhere he happens to be, even at Grand Tribunal (though penetrating the Aegis might be difficult). He can also use it to perform a Seeking in his laboratory in the Rhine, but since he is using Sihr as his summoning art he can only bring other jinn to him, and they are extremely rare in northern Europe. I'd suggest you divide his lab total by 5 when determining the Might Score of the jinni summoned. Note that the Area Lore used in the Lab Total must be appropriate to the area in which he is Seeking, in this case covering some part of The Rhine.

I hate to contradict you, O master of jinni, but my intention with the Seeking and Scouring lab activities was a bit more open-ended -- that they work for whatever sort of spirit the sahir's summoning art targets. I obviously didn't convey that very well, though. :slight_smile: So I figured that if a sahir uses Divine Methods and Powers, for example, he can summon an angel and then use Solomonic magic through that angel using his Invocation score as his summoning art. If he does a Seeking he will only find spirits that can be affected by Invocation. Likewise, if a Hermetic magus initiated Solomonic Storytelling, he could summon a spirit with Rego Vim and then perform a Solomonic Seeking using Rego as his summoning art.

Thanks Erik, on other hand this is usefull to me. One of my players has chosen Solomonic Alchemy being one Iberic/Hermetic Sahir. The i am working with him to make one story interesting (he being tricked to be initiated by one rogue Sahir and now he got Dark Secret about that fact). Thanks for your wisdom about this way to work both Magic styles (Hermetic and Solomonic).

Meh, IIRC Summoning (per RoP: I) has it's own system for Scouring (or something very similar). If you're assuming Summoning is used (and I do think it's the most common Summoning Art outside of the Dar), just use that instead.

Thank you for your answers, they were very helpful for my planning.

The cause for this thread were my thoughts about this itinerant Sahir at the magical court of Baron Geoffroy D´Arques (Antagonists, p. 8, in my saga he has a german name, but this doesn´t matter). The Sahir character isn´t fleshed out and all we can read is:

I tried to arrange the background so that Jabir is doing something reasonable in Mythic Europe. I don´t want his whole journey to be only a trap or a temptation of an infernal Jinn. I want the players to take Jabir serious as an NPC. Now I have an interesting answer:

That means: Mythic Europe isn´t a pleasant destination for a Sahir. His personal development will come to a halt. But the story arc around Baron Geoffroi D´Arques doesn´t enforce his courtmembers to be servants until the end of his life:

Now I think, this journey is nothing a Sahir does voluntarily. But perhaps this powerful spirit of the sands wants to support the Order of Suleiman and chose Jabir as a tool. One day the spirit speaks to Jabir as follows:



I am not so keen on placing a specific ethnic identity & location restriction on genies. Myths of the Jinn predate Islam and the precursors stretch was back to ancient Persia and Babylon.
And brass bbottles could wind up anywhere

...and both Persia and Babylon are parts of the Dar (al-Islam) - lands of the Jinn.

Um... T? :confused:

But even if brass bottles could wash up on the shores of Ireland or Denmark (and I agree they "could"), would spirits related to jinns naturally inhabit those regions? Would they be just as easily accessible (and potent?) there as they would be in Persia and Babylon? That is the question.

Got me on the Persia/Babylon thing. The point was that it was not associated with Islam though, ut you have me with geography :smiley:
As for brass bottles, if you read Tales of Power, those 'afrit inhabit the very bottles themselves! Or, more accurately, they inhabit the City of Brass in the Magic Realm, and the bottle is it's conduit into the mundane realm.

I thought you as the sahir were meant to be summoning me (the jinn), but mayhap the tables are turned O Master?

Who indeed is the Sahib al-Jinn or the Sahib al-Sahir... :slight_smile:

OK, I couldn't find the line saying the Area Lore must be appropriate to the area - my interpretation would be that what Area Lore you use does not have to be specific to where you are exactly as a sahir as it all happens at Arcane Connection range. Personally, I'd House Rule in any Saga I'd run that this would not apply but it's great to have the original intent clarified. A specific page reference would be great, but it may have been something we overlooked.

OK, that's not as clear as I recall but then we did change the mechanics around during play testing and I didn't have a chance to check the books before I posted.

On rechecking yes, the Lab Activity is linked to Solomonic Storytelling not Sihr so is not specific.

I've edited my original response with the clarifications in blue above.


Perhaps he's looking for a specific jinn contained in a Brass Bottle - nice segway into involvement with Hermetic magi and lead in to Tales of Power?
(the Ex-Misc sahir used in our intro could be replaced by Jabir as a substitute, linking the Baron's Court plot with the ToP arc)

Your other ideas are pretty interesting - I'm enjoying this thread. One of the major concepts behind tCatC was the potential for using sahir and other MME characters in a traditional Mythic Europe Saga and this thread shows their potential IMO to make the "vanilla" game more interesting by introducing some exotic elements.

Just a thought


I don't have my book with me, unfortunately, but the bit that clarifies this (admittedly not very well) is the formulae for Seeking and Scouring, which both specify an "appropriate" Area Lore. This qualifier wouldn't be needed if you could use it to search any area.