What modern evolution could be present based purely on knowledge of the Ancients

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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The discussion on the gun powder, production scale-up and explosion lead me to a more global thought experiment.

What kind of modern development would be present within Mythic Europe paradigm ?
To be elaborate more, the knowledge of the Ancients is true and is the base for any technological improvement. Which means that it is possible to invent or discover something, but it cannot contradict any of these knowledge bases, as presented in Art & Academe.
By the way, magic is out of scope.

My background is in chemical engineering, not at all in Antiquities, so any feedback is welcome, as long as it does not degenerate in expert battle nitpicking on small details.

Here is a list of inventions I am specifically interested in finding out if they could occur or how they would be changed?

  • Mass production based on Formulae: in Mythic Europe background, Natural magic can be practiced by anyone knowledgeable (in the sense that no specific virtue or connection to a Realm is required), which is one of the bottleneck to the production of steel for example. What would be a reasonable way to see it scale-up (there was already a proposal in the discussion of gunpowder), what would be required ? My hypothesis is that the quality of the raw materials available is so inconsistent that it takes constant monitoring and adjustment from the philosopher to achieve the end results, making scale-up challenging.
  • Invention of thermometer - measuring relative difference of temperature was already known with dilation of matter, but it took several steps to achieve a reliable way to measure "universal temperature" - this invention is quite key to the development of many fields since it makes experiment comparable and repeatable. Considering that our modern law of thermodynamics do not follow all Ancients knowledge, I don't know what would work ?
  • Steam engine: converting fire power into motion was already known since the Antiquities, but nobody made the leap to use it to generate significant mechanical power. One of the need for powerful steam engines is good quality steel (smaller one can be handle other material) - thus the initial question regarding mass producing formulae. Would steam engine spread and be generally available (train, steam boat), or would it be restricted (only small capacity engine) or be a rarity for specific application ?
  • What about Mendeleiev table and overall chemistry? It feels not really compatible with the Atomism conception of the matter and Empedocles - but here, it is pure guesswork from my side. Various element would be discovered, that is not the issue, but with modern chemistry comes attached a whole bunch of thermodynamic laws that kind of rub against the grain of Antiques philosophy.
  • Would electricity be discovered as we understand it ? Would it be possible to generate it (it requires magnetism understanding) or would it be limited to harvesting energy from the storm (and how to store it and use it - Stardust anyone ?) ?

I would keep nuclear power for a later stage as it depends a bit on these initial questions.

Other big inventions that should occur without much problem: printing press, chronometer for example.

It seems also reasonable to consider that medicine would evolve following a different path that our modern medicine, but understanding of the body (under different principles) should gradually improve thus leading to a differnet but also more efficient medicine (even if I would not really understand how it would look like).

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Materials science, making better steel, I think is viable. Bronze Age, Iron age, etc. Gold being relatively soft and crap unless it is alloyed with other metals. I don't think there' is anything in the ancients that prevent improvements in materials.

The desire to improve output or get energy for "free" is a huge driver. The use of watermills. The extensive use of gears, pulleys, etc, seems to suggest driving towards a steam engine is possible.

I will concede I have nowhere near the historical knowledge and education as some on these boards. I may well have missed some key detail, and am more than happy to be contradicted.

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I think one of the problems is changing the mindset of educated people.

I think Gallileo did some experiment with sloped surfaces and found objects would follow a parabola. That's more or less the infancy of that evolution of mindset.

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No. There four types of atoms - earth, air, fire and water, not 100+. Iron is not an atom, it's merely earth atoms arranged in a specific pattern. Modern chemistry cannot come to pass. More likely is that the traditional alchemical arts become more common once universities spread.

This will generate debate, if recent threads are any indication. I would say that in my game, steam engines are more likely to end up being a magical tradition than anything else if they ever happen, but others may see this happening.

As we understand it? No. There are four types of atoms, and they can't be divided further to provide electrons since atoms literally means "uncuttable". If lightnings could be reliably harvested and stored for electricity - perhaps, but at that point you're delving into magic, not technology.

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5

but there could be alchemistry of a sort. We are not that far away from the historical discovery of Arsenic (a new metal).
What precise ratios/patterns of the four atoms give rise to the metals observed?
Do they need a specific magic spirit to anchor them if they are unnatural?
Can expenditions to the magic realm uncover new substances?
Can actions performed in the magic realm create new natural substances that don't need magic to keep them beyond the duration of a spell?
Is there a new guideline in Intellego to determine which precise arrangement makes iron or bronze, and could this lead to permanent muto spells as long as they have the appropriate intellego requisite?
Do new metals indicate the existence of hitherto undiscovered corresponding planets?

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Things that could be considered are all the real-world inventions that happened relatively soon after 1220, as those fit the knowledge of the time, only requiring a little more effort to figure out. For example, moving from the simplest compass to the floating compass and then to the dry mariner's compass. Roger Bacon wrote of lenses enlarging letters, and it wasn't long until the most basic eyeglasses were made. Mechanical clocks already existed, but the important advance in the escapement was around 1300. Blast furnaces are just starting to appear. Alcohol-producing stills show up sometime soon, too. Treadmill cranes as well. The spinning wheel is further off, but there is nothing in its technology that couldn't be managed.

Wheelbarrows and flying buttresses have actually just been invented, so your inventor is too late to originate those.

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Steel existed in 1220, so obviousy it could be made and, given sufficient refinement of technique and knowledge, be produced in bulk.
Electricity is out. In the paradigm of the ancients lightning is fire of the gods (or in Medieval Europe God), and completely unrelated to static electricity which is an ephemeral phenomenon.
Steam certainly existed, both in terms of aereopiles and cooking pots with weights on the lid. Whether it could be harnessed in the method of the real world is ambiguous, there might be limitations on how much power could be produced or directed given that the physics of motion were completely different as well.

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The alembic pot still was invented in the 8th or 9th century, depending on source. It is used to this day and it is very effective at distilling alcohol. It remained a tool of alchemist till sometime in the 12th or 13th century when groups begin experimenting with large versions for mass distilling, though it is possible that it could have happened sooner. The oldest known alembic stills (not pot) were dated around 1,850 BC in Cyprus, some 3,000 years before the start date of Ars Magica though they were used for making perfume. The issue is not the still, but moving it from an alchemist tool to something for mass production and there are records showing groups experimented with it in the 12th century.

Look up the aeolipile, aeolipyle, or eolipile (also called "Heron's engine" which might fit the setting better). Hero(n) of Alexandria described it in the 1st century and is often credited as the inventor, though it did appear in the slightly earlier De Architectura which should be fairly commonly known to the Order (it is focused on Roman Architecture).

Several other uses of steam were in common use by the Romans, such as radiant heat. However actual steam powered devices for useful work did not appear until centuries after the start of Ars Magica.

What type are you referring to? The Marine chronometer did not appear until the 18th century, but there are many not suitable for ship use (to large, unstable, etc) that appeared before it. Mechanical water clocks were invented in the 3rd century and fully mechanical clocks were becoming common in churches sometime in the 13th century.

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I realise that I might not have been clear in my initial message: the purpose of my query is to extrapolate what would be the scientific & technological developments 500-800 years down the line, based on Mythic Europe premises.

So let's try to summarise various points:

Chemistry

Some new elements could be discovered - because they already exist in nature, and techniques of purification might eventually lead to their discovery (since stills and other alembics are already known and it is reasonable to assume that they could be perfected), but any element tables won't be looking like Mendeleiev: pure element might be listed but categorized differently, possibly according to the number and type of atoms they contains, but the type of atoms will be referring to the four types of atoms (water, fire, air and earth), no electronegativity or electron structure since incompatible with Antiques principles.

Because of the way elements are composed, any future development of chemistry will be quite different from our chemistry and would more likely be called "Modern Alchemy" or "Alchemistry".

Mass production

It is reasonable to consider that overtime, and gradual improvements, mass production - at least to some extent - is possible. Maybe not to the point of the gigantic high performance furnaces that we know have (it is possible that metallurgic and chemistry knowledge might reach a ceiling that won't allow multi-tons mass production).

Steam engine

The jury is still out regarding how far steam power can go and produce mechanical force. Is it :

  • only in the realm of (hermetic) magic
  • within grasp of natural magician (and hermetic mage) rediscovering Heron's secret and building upon it
  • achievable through regular scientific observation, extrapolating from the aeolipile
    If any development is possible, it will occur as there is a strong drive and need to have "human-free" mechanical labor.

Electricity

This one is clearly out. Which means that most (all ?) electronic development won't occur, nor battery and a whole range of modern invention (line phone, radio, etc.).
It is possible that new species could be discovered leading to similar development, but this is clearly into the realm of speculation and mostly left to each SG who want to speculate a Ars Modernica setting.

Clock, watch

Any time measuring devices that would slowly be discovered and improved, allowing more accurate and reliable ship exploration.
This developments don't seem to break any Anitques limit. It is more the co-current development of various skills and techniques (adequate type of metal quality for springs, accuracy of manufacturing) that would need to happen - but here again, nothing breaking the limits.

Based on this initial list, it would look like that a Steam-punk looking Ars Modernica is possible.

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The steam engine was covered in the earlier De architectura which was a fairly widely spread book at the start time of Ars Magica. So no rediscovery required. Other things covered within it include war machines, an astrolabe, a machine to create stereographic projections built into an anaphoric clock, water aqueducts and mills (grain, saw, etc) including the reverse overshot water wheel, Roman cement (but not Roman concrete, which was invented after the book was written), the dangers of lead pipes and drinking water (it covers a lot about lead poisoning), Roman style baths, Archimedes' screw, the force pump, central heating systems, and many different surveying instruments.

There is much overlap between De architectura and Hero(n)'s works, though in much of Europe the only one that people had access to at the time was De architectura. De architectura was also written about half a century before Hero(n)'s works and so might have actually been an inspiration or the original source for several of his items.

EDIT: As for total size, all of Hero(n)'s works (each two or three books) combined are only about twice the size of De architectura (10 books).

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Water or sand clocks could most definitely be refined. Mechanical clock already existed by 1220 and could also be refined. The big invention which is as yet uncertain is the regularity of motion of the pendulum independent of the amplitude of motion. Whether this could exist given the physics of motion in Aristotle is uncertain, but refined timepieces (especially watches) would not be dependant upn it.

Alchemistry could get really wild- the current table of the elements is fundamentally dependant on the simple question "how many protons" with other properties simply being observed. The alchemical table of the elements could in principle have 4 dimensions to it based on how many of each of the four elements. It would, I expect, be equally more difficult to map out.

Mass production- certainly an assembly line could be invented. Automation doesn't seem like a reasonable possibility, so any kind of powered manufacturing would likely remain tied to wind or water power unless steam or some equivalent form of industrial scale power could be produced.
On the other side of that there is no conservation of mass and energy at this point and the numbers in the rules of motion may not completely add up, so perpetual motion devices might be inventible to fill in that gap.