Hello! We have a doubt. Let's take this spell for example:
WIND AT THE BACK
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
An existing breeze follows you until you stop traveling for more than ten minutes. It causes phenomena you pass through (fog, haze) to follow you.
(Base 2, +1 Touch, +2 Sun (closest duration to special effect)) pg. 128
If I want to cast this spell in and individual other than myself (for exemple, a grog) can I do it with the spell described above or do I need to change something?
A version of this spell that says "An existing breeze follows whomever you touch until..." would be extacly the same level and more versatile, right?
The (HoH:TL p.107) Virtues Mutantum Magic or Tethered Magic, if available, make things a lot easier: they allow to pass the control of your Wind at the Back to the back's owner.
Okay, I searched in the basic manual (ArM5) and found this spell:
LEVEL 5
CLOAK OF THE DUCK’S FEATHERS
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
Makes water run off one object or creature, protecting the target and the target’s apparel from dampness. The spell is broken if the target is submerged in water.
(Base 1, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 for slightly unnatural control)
This spell does not require AC or Tethered Magic to affect another person (or anything, in this case). The only requirement is "+1 for slightly unnatural control".
And there is also this:
WARD AGAINST HEAT AND FLAMES
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
Keeps heat and fire at bay, unable to approach within 1 pace of the target. This renders the target immune to damage from flames or heat of intensity less than that of molten iron. The target gets a +15 Soak against all fire-related damage. Any fire doing less than +15 damage per round doesn’t penetrate the ward. Such fires simply dim at the protected person’s passing and flare back up after he or she is gone.
(Base 4, +2 for up to +15 damage, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)
So... When the spell is a protection (the classic "humans can't get any closer to the target - ReCo" or "plants can't get any closer of the target - ReHe") then it's okay to cast this spell in anyone or anything.
I don't see why this shouldn't be possible for WIND AT THE BACK or similars, maybe with the "+1 for slightly unnatural control".
The point is, that a magus who casts a spell can control it while it is within - casting - Range.
If it passes out of Range, he can't any more.
In the quoted discussion we agreed, that it makes sense to add two magnitudes plus the need for an Arcane Connection, and then allow a The Sword Follows its Assigned Wearer in our sagas.
Your troupe might also agree, but there are no rules or examples to show them about it. You also will have to curb the clever gamer in your troupe who concludes, that a Ball of Fire of Duration Sun can be made to follow a person (immersing it) in a similar way.
You just referenced two wards. Wards specifically work a bit differently than other spells, the thing being warded against not being the target. But in this case, the breeze being created is the Individual target as appropriate for a Creo effect.
Better analogies would be spells like Circling Winds of Protection or Lungs of the Fish.
I still find adding a magnitude (and a Rego requisite if it isn't there) sufficient to make a spell that will stick. Alternatively, you could potentially use the middle MuVi guideline or this MuVi guideline:
Pass control of a spell of a specific Form to another person. The level of the affected spell must be less than or equal to the level of this spell + 2 magnitudes. [HP p.97-98]
That would be much like OneShot's suggestion about Tethered Magic, as passing control of a spell is canonically available to MuVi.
It's way more complicated than I though at first. I will discuss it with my troupe. For now, possible solutions are:
Add magnitudes.
Need for Arcane Connection.
Requisite rego.
It also ocurred to me than if the target person of the spell is volunteer, the spell might be lower level. For exemple, if it is voluntary, it only requires Arcane Connection, and if not, the Arcane Connection and one or two magnitudes.
Idk. I will think about it and talk with my troupe. When we decide something, I will post it here for your opinions ;D.
Well, Circling Winds of Protection is CrAu, whereas Wind at the Back is a rego spell. Circling Winds also has a rego requisite to control and keep the wild wind you summon in place. Lungs of the Fish, Muto, targets the water you're inhaling. Neither of these two example spells can really be attached to other people by the way the spells read. Now, I've seen Lungs of the Fish cast on other people as a common ruling (feels like a house rule to me, but people think it's RAW/RAI, and I don't see a reason to argue for it, just opinion.)
"It should be allowed but harder to do" is best represented by magnitudes or requisites, so if your group wants to be able to have spells follow other people, they can rule that it can, or they can rule magnitudes and requisites handles it. I will point out that you cannot really add Rego requisites to a Rego spell, so in this instance, it's just + magnitudes. Arcane connections don't feel like it fixes the problem, but ruling an AC range spell can follow the target implicitly is a very reasonable ruling.
I will add in that there isn't really a benefit for someone being voluntary, the only reason a willing target is easier is because they might be able to lower their magic resistance, and they probably won't dodge your touch-range spell. Neither applicable in this case, since you're not targetting a person, but targetting a wind.
My suggestions:
Just allow it if your group wants.
+1 or +2 magnitudes and maybe a Rego requisite.
+1 or +2 magnitudes and a requisite of the 'anchor target' form, ie, corpus to tie the spell to a human.
Say it's hermetically possible but people haven't really figured it out yet, and a bit of experimentation can solidify it in hermetic theory (I now have a new character idea!)
Rego Vim or Muto Vim magic that transfers the 'focal point' of the spell to a new target.
Both spells (Cloak of the Duck's Feathers and Ward Against Heat and Flames) are basically wards, which work this way (the target is the thing protected). Tethered Magic shows it can work, it's just not yet integrated into hermetic theory.
I'd suggest added magnitudes over what a tethered spell would be.
I still think, as I did in the referenced thread, that Coat of Flame serves as a good example. The Target is the created fire, not the person it is placed on. If you just CrIg a fire in someone's location, they can jump/roll/run/whatever away from it as soon as they have an opportunity. But in this case they cannot because it clings to them, which is why the damage keeps being done to them until the Duration is up instead of other effects that do their damage until the person leaves the affected area. The Rego requisite serves this purpose as well as making sure other things don't catch, which amounts to pretty similar things: it stays on the target, not elsewhere. As it's a bit extra and just +1 Magnitude, I still feel adding 1 Magnitude and a Rego requisite is consistent in this regard, so long as the person you want the wind to follow is right there so you touch the breeze touching the person.
I'm a bit confused here. The posted spell's Range is Touch. Shouldn't it be able to affect any person or animal if the caster is touching them when the spell is initially cast? I suspect that's how I'd rule as SG in play and am fairly sure my Troupe would agree. We use 4th ed. if that makes a difference.
Yep. But if you no longer touch the breeze, by ArM5 p.111 Ranges you can't control that spell any more. Exceptions need to be adjudicated by each troupe as house rules.
Indeed: this applies, while the recipient of Coat of Flame remains within your R: Voice.
But if the recipient moves or is moved out of your R: Voice, you can't control the fire any more, so it can spread and the recipient can shed its resulting flames in the usual ways: rolling in the dust, jumping into water, and such.
That is, why R: Arcane Connection or (TMRE p.94f) R: Line make sense for spells intended to be cast on moving recipients.
And that is also, why fortunately a R: Voice D: Sun Coat of Flame doesn't make sense.
ArM5 p.140 Coat of Flame just has R: Voice. I didn't want to cause confusion in the discussion by inventing a new - quite useless - version of it with R: Touch, to align it with ArM5 p.128 Wind at the Back.
I want to belive (maybe i'm wrong) that this spell will last all the duration of the spell, regardless if i'm in range or not:
PRISON OF FLAMES
R: Voice, D: Sun, T: Ind
Turns a bonfire into a prison shaped like a miniature castle. A person thrown into the middle is not burned, but takes +15 damage if he or she tries to escape.
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +2 Sun, +1 Size)
And, in the other hand, this spell will last only if i'm in range:
UNSEEN ARM
R: Voice, D: Conc, T: Ind
Slowly moves a nonliving thing, like a mug, instrument, or small pouch of coins; it cannot oppose intentional resistance. Magi use this spell to manipulate things at a distance, but the spell cannot be used to pull something from a person’s hand or to move something that is held. Casting requisites of an appropriate Form for the target are required.
(Base 2, +2 Voice, +1 Conc)
This is true because of this "A spell that has a continuing effect remains in effect even if the caster moves out of range. A spell that allows the caster to control the effect only permits that control as long as the caster is within range." pg. 111 ArM5.
But i fail to see WIND AT THE BACK as a spell the caster controls. If the spell affects me (the caster) and I fell unconscious for 4 minuts, when I wake up the spell would still be affecting me, right? I don't see why it should go away. If this assumption is true (I could be wrong) it means I don't control the spell, the wind follows me, simply because of "magic". So I would argue that this is a spell with a continuing effect, and so "remains in effect even if the caster moves out of range".