Why certamen works

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

One debate seems to come up again and again: That certamen is fundamentally unfair because the Tremere are very good at it, so nobody would want to do it.

Ezzelino argued for certamen here, and I want to collect some arguments over why it does work. The starting point is this post by Timothy Ferguson.

  • Even if the blades are of equal length, people will still have different arm lengths. People do not all have the same skill at duels. Still, duels were an accepted way of setting some issues. Tremere use the same dagger, they are simply more skilled duelists.

  • Justice is something personal. There is no police, you're on your own. You can call your family, friends, or housemates and see whether they might help - but that crucially depends on your reputation and honor. They might not be willing to escalate a conflict because you're too afraid to agree to a duel. (Some might be willing to take up the challenge in your stead.)

  • If you're afraid of dueling someone, you should in most cases also be afraid of going to war against them. The Tremere focus only reflects their House's coherence and support. Tremere should be very willing to make sure going nobody profits from choosing war over certamen (they might not have the power to do so in all Tribunals).

  • The majority viewpoint is that if a mage challenges you to certamen and you refuse, he wins automatically and gets whatever he wanted. (Core p. 89 - "One need not accept a challenge to certamen, but that is the same as conceding defeat.")

2

I mean, mechanically you're just not correct that the duel is fair. Certamen gives Tremere an unfair advantage.

3

Yes, which is why previous attempts to replace the Tremere House Virtue often arrived at "something that is helpful for Certamen but also applicable outside it", e.g. Puissant Parma or Finesse.

But nothing has been found that really seems to suit.

(I like the Certamen focus, on balance, but it absolutely has the problem that Tim is pointing out.)

4

One of us will solve it one day.

5

'Unfair advantage'? Do you mean that no magi outside of Tremere could ever possibly take a focus in Certemen? Or have such a duel using one of their Puissant Arts? Or where some aspect of their (other) focus helps their duel? Or that the the mMF in Certamen is overwhelmingly decisive, such that no other mage could hope to overcome it?

I think 'fair' or 'unfair' in cases like this is decided by Tribunals, and block-voting Tremere are likely to influence that. 'Just solve it with a Wizard War instead' is also likely to be frowned upon -- preventing WW is precisely the purpose of Certamen. Nor is it likely to be 'easier'; if a given Tremere mage is too formidable to be challenged to Certamen, then waging a Wizard's War against every single Tremere mage in the Order is unlikely to be 'easier'.

6

No, "unfair" in this context means quite specifically that it is an advantage in Certamen that is not otherwise reflected in their magical skill or in how dangerous they are in Wizard's War. It is an "artificial" advantage. It doesn't matter whether any particular duel is evenly matched, but it matters whether Certamen overall functions as a reasonably accurate proxy for Wizard's War.

7

Again -- is this advantage completely unavailable to non-Tremere magi? No (for example) Tytalus mage could take a mMF in Certamen?

A mage involved in a Wizard's War would certainly be expected to bring the full power of their Magical Focus to bear, and similar behavior should be expected in Certamen. The difference is that Tremere have an edge (they always get to use their focus, whereas the other mage has to expend some effort to bring their focus to bear) in a situation where someone is less likely to die.

8

(I very much dislike that artificial focus.)
I feel that, since that focus is artificial and not respecting any sort of rule of foci, being designed after that the certamen was brought in the hermetic magic, I feel like no other magus than a tremere could have it.
I don't see how someone could have it naturally because it's not natural at all.
And if I were to not replace this with something better suited for Tremere, I'd definitely prevent any non Tremere magi to have it.

9

This is absolutely false. You can be the worst magus, and still be able to kill someone while they sleep. It's just a matter to be good at sneaking and going unseen in their sanctum.
If you are bad at sneaking, you are maybe someone many persons love, and feel happy to help by providing an arcane connection. Or maybe you have seduced the servant of your target, who will happily kill them during their sleep or put poison in their food.
Or maybe you have been friend with a local dragon and bought their service and they will burn the tower where your enemy has his sanctum.

In certamen, you cannot replace "Te" or "Fo" with "great weapon" or "charm". So if your enemy has "focus", you are at a disadvantage and cannot do anything. Obviously if you are an archmage, and the Tremere is a young magus, you may win if it fall into your good (or even average) scores. But not every archmagus has 10 everywhere, and many Tremere, due to their certamen focus, tend in my eyes to have 5 everywhere at gauntlet

Obviously as a "united" house is powerful also, but that's more of a storyguide and time setting. In a new order (circa 800) the house is a monolith... which leads to the sundering and the breaking of their ambitions. In 1220 it's more spread between factions and SG can make them more loose in their hierarchy.

10

I'm pretty sure it's still the rule that no other focus ever applies to Certamen, but that's not even really the point. If you are much better than another given magus at Certamen... why do they want to face you in Certamen? Only because they can expect similar results if they tried to face you in War, and Certamen is a lower-stakes alternative. But the more you're specialized in Certamen itself, the less true that becomes. It doesn't really matter in the end what form the specialization takes, it's just the black-and-white nature of the Focus that gives a huge bonus to Certamen and does absolutely nothing else, that makes it so extreme.

Imagine if all international conflicts in the world were resolved by chess. Overnight, Norway becomes a global superpower... but only until someone realizes "hey, hang on, Magnus Carlsen's ability to win games of chess only gives him any power because we've all agreed to it, Norway is actually tiny." He's not somehow cheating, he actually is that good at chess, but there's no real relation between chess skill and global influence. So the nations that actually have global influence don't need to defer to chess skill. That's the ad-absurdum extreme of what we're talking about here.

11

It's not a great example. Chess with the ability to buy extra pieces with real money or a simulated wargame between the armies using rubber bullets is a more apt conparison. Magi are not states and don't tend to fight interpersonal conflicts with armies.

12

That's true. You don't have to be a mage to kill someone in their sleep, even a mundane could do it. So you're saying that Art scores don't matter much in Wizard's War, and that's true to some extent. There are many decisive factors, such as your spell selection, your magic items, your preparation.

I think I have to revise my statement. Certamen has a unique niche that cannot be filled by a Wizard's War. Wizard's War takes up much more of your time and is much more dangerous and so it's almost never a good option, except when the stakes are so high that you are willing to risk your life.

Most conflicts will be solved by diplomacy and politics, simply because you can't allow yourself to accumulate too many enemies. If you cannot come to an agreement, the next best thing is certamen.

If we ignore the Focus for a moment, certamen favors those with high Arts - that is old, politically powerful mages. That is a strong incentive for them to support it. Certamen can be used to put some younglings in their place cheaply and effectively. Interestingly, the Rhine tribunal sort of automatically decides some contests based on rank; a master does not have to duel a journeyman, he wins automatically.

13

I'm not saying art do not matter. I'm saying that if you are in a quarrel against someone, and he is a tremere with an unfair advantage in certamen, you could rather decide to go into his sanctum and take an item to make him understand that he has wronged you. If he doesn't understand that you could have killed him rather than just take something (either directly, by magic, by mundane, by distraction)... then you have options.

He could decide to do a certamen after the wizard's war but that seems like not reading the room and not accept your mercy.

If he is very much more powerful than you, of course you will not do such things because power is strength. But if you are of the same age, the certamen which sould be a good way to settle a dispute (and avoid the war which could result in a death even if it's not your goal - and probably not his even - because once the gloves are off, nobody knows how to stop the guns from firing) is not due to the fact that he is a Tremere and has a focus dedicated to that magic duel which would be unbalancing the act.

If he is younger, the certamen is an option again in several cases (it depends on your and his specialties, the knowledge of his arts and the myths you created around your specialities), but if you are in a dispute with a younger magus, maybe there is something to be done before a duel or a war, like discuss why it is a dispute.

I have always seen the wizard's war like something where few magi want to kill the other, but the death is the unwanted final result anyway. Because magi botches their spells, because they fall from the sky flying fleeing the tower of the magus, because the familiar was a beast with so much brawl it cuts you in two.
And maybe, you were just entering the sanctum to steal an item and leave a not saying "see, I just stole that apple. It could have been your head. Maybe next time, before insulting me for interrupting your great plans monologue in front of my parens during last month supper, you would discuss things with me on why it made you feel that I didn't respect your otherhwise totally deserved status. I may not be an archmagus, but I'm still due some respect".
Too bad, he really was an archmagus and the wizard's war you declared is on his pile of letters "I read but already cast PeMe to not encumber my mind with little details during my impressive research about the secrets of Tremere at Coeris which were lost during the Sundering".

14

I agree that Focus Certamen for all Tremere brings a lot of problems. They tend to be too strong in Certamen as a general rule and they might be able to somewhat hide it for a while but after hundred of years, it has to be well known which devaluates the Certamen itself. It also makes Tremere a magically weak house as they cannot have a true magical focus as we are limited to one.

I think Tremere, like any house, should be able to have the focus akin to how Flambeau sometimes have fire related virtues but their house virtue should be something like Affinity Intrigue or Puissant Order of Hermes Lore so they can better chose the arts in Certamen.

W

15

That's a possibility, but it's rather extreme. If you quarrel about a vis source to which you both have good claims, are you really going to break into the other mage's sanctum and put a dead horse's head on his bed?

It also doesn't help when you are being challenged to certamen.

16

I have always felt the wizard war to send a message is extreme, or at least an action of great hubris.

No matter the magi's final intent, it cannot be known. The magi is saying they are willing to enter in to a fight to the death because someone angered them. The target should be expecting the declarer of the war to try to kill, so they should be going all out, which could have the end result of the death of the war declarer, thus my earlier use of the word hubris.

One can refer to duels, etc, but I would think, to some degree, the magi of the order considers they are better that those foolish nobles competing in duels.

17

I totally agree with the fact that by design, wizard war is meant to be extreme.
That's why certamen should be the socially normal way to deal with petty insults and all that is not extreme.
Hence the problem that if your "normal" way of dealing with problems, you never can use it against a Tremere because they are better-by-design-at-it, it's broken.
Of course, if you never meet any Tremere magus, you are fine. But no normal Tremere magus would not notice that nobody dares to start a certamen against them, and let them have their way with petty things.

In my eyes, that's how you create the sparks for a revolution.
(I'm thinking that when I play another game in 1220 without any other option for certamen than the "forced focus" for that House, it is ground zero for a saga where the House Tremere will be sundered again after a lot of little abuses everywhere and getting so much antipathy. That would be a "they didn't learn their lesson the first time, let's repeat history" themed saga and I'm sure I can add other repeats from other house. Like Guernicus and Diedne. That could be fun but need more thinking to be complete.)

18

In many cases, I tend to treat Certamen as a means for resolving disputes when a Tribunal meeting is unavailable.

Now like all Tribunal decisions, a larger Tribunal meeting can over-rule a smaller decision. If you wish to invalidate a Certamen outcome on the grounds of being unfair, present your case at a Tribunal meeting. If the original dispute is something that that the Tribunal rules is something valid to both Magi, then the original Certamen result will probably hold up.But if the dispute is something that a Tribunal would rule as vexatious, then the Certamen might be ruled invalid, especially if the unjustly targeted Maga refused to participate and lost by default.

But Tribunal meetings can be up to 7 years away, and in-between there are reputations to be won or lost by bullying, or refusing to play.

But there are also formal rules of etiquette to Certamen, are there not? A potential one refusal on Technique or Form. You can only challenge a Maga once, until they challenge you back.
This would limit Certamen bullies, as they only get one shot before their victims refuse to play.
And is Certamen valid if there are no witnesses? Especially a Q.

And just as it is possible to be censured by Tribunal for a Bonisagus to take too many apprentices, a Flambeau to massacre too many innocents without leaving witnesses, or declare too many Wizard Wars, thus I would argue there will be censure for too many vexatious Certamen challenges.

19

Yes, certamen is the normal way of dealing with these things. I don't think you get to escape a duel because the other guy is better than you. Tremere have an advantage, but saying that it's unfair is very subjective. You might just as well say it reflects their special training. If someone insults you or challenges you, you can't just say "no thanks", even if he's a famous duelist who already won ten duels and it's your first. You duel anyway, because it's the honorable thing to do (which means there are severe social consequences for chickening out that may be worse than death). If it's not a matter of honor, you can of course refuse and forfeit the issue.

20

You say "you might just as well say it reflects their special training". Except it is not training.
You can spend all your life training for certamen and still not be better than a Tremre who has just studied half the time you did. (and with the cost of art and abilities he doesn't even need that).

Let's say you spend time to have 5 in every ability used that's penetration and parma, so 150xp.
You also spend 55xp in 4 arts, which are your "good" ones. As an attacker, you will have a choice between 2 of those 4. But you will have a random chance for the 2 others.

You spend 150+220 xp for this.

The Tremere has spend 15xp *2 in abilities, for a meager 2 and 15x15 xp for 5 in every art.
He is well more suited to crush you as attacker or defender because he can hit one of your 0's (we expect that you manage to get one of your good one for the other !) and still match your good one.
You have a 3 difference in ability which is not enough for his +5 advantage but well.

But that was a almost gauntleted mage. Now if we repeat this operation for your 4 arts at 20, with 4x210 xp, and your 8 in 2 abilities, for 360 xp, that means 360+840 = 1200xp.
The tremere has raised only 4 arts to 15, and every other at 5. That cost him 11x15+4x120 = 480+165 = 645xp.
He spends the same 360xp you did because why not.
He still has spend less than you, and we expact that you hit him with one of your good art, for a magnificient 20, against his meager 5x2
But he hits you with one of his good art, for a 15 against 0..

Now you insert politics and intrigue, the Tremere knows your arts, provoked you for a long time, preparing for you to come duel him, or even fed you false informations about his arts, goals, etc. and one of his 15 is one of the 20 you thought he didn't have. Suddenly your advantage is 20 vs 2x15 (-1!) and still, you are at 15 vs 0. Let's not even speak if your 20 is against his 15 and he is at 30 vs 0 because that would be a landslide victory, if he strikes first.

In that example (which is purely theoretical) he spends less xp, and in the best case for you, he wins after some effort ; in the best case for him, he wins and crushes you with total humiliation.
And if he has vis to match (i'm not even sure any more if vis is allowed during a certamen honestly), that's a bigger winning.
The nature of the arts & abilites cost render his x2 advantage more advantageous the more he goes up.
Iirc the attacker choose the technique, so as the defender, he would be even more advantaged. (He just put 10 in every technique, and 2 forms at 20 for example, which would then cost 5x55+8x15 (not mandatory but to open an apprentice it's fine)+2x210 = 815 or 695 (+360 if we keep that number of 8 in two abilities)
And then it's a 20 vs 2x10 and 20 vs 0.

I personaly don't care much for honor but honor is a tool, and I see Tremere magi to use the honor of their enemies to crush them: either they start unwinnable certamens, or they are shamed in front of their allies and potential supports ("you would help this man? who didn't even stand for himself? and he asks that you fight his battle? sure do, but do not be surprised when he refuses to help YOU since you already know he wont help himself.").

(Of course as there is a lot of randomness in the game, it's not a sure thing. But that's a question of statistics, botch chances, etc.)