i think the discusion is moot since combat is kinda usless vs a mage.
Not at all. A knife between the shoulderblades puts a serious cramp in the wizard's style. Many magi have the same vain presumption you just stated, or falsely believe that their shield grogs are all that are needed to protect them. Such magi neglect to take a Brawl score, and thus have a -3 to all dodge rolls. Magi who imagine themselves invulnerable to mundane armaments often wind up dead at a young age, and never get to that level of power.
And some of us like to play warrior magi that are focused on the Art of Combat 8)
Besides, not all combats have magi present, nor are all magi combat monsters.
Cheers,
Xavi
Agreed. Remember that there are even some magi who uses their magic to bolster their close combat prowess, and use swords and other weapons to great effect. A few protective spells removes the need for a shield (or how about a version of the Unseen Porter who uses a shield for you?), making both hands free to wield magical swords. 
E.
You realize that the Rules as written seem to cover two-weapon fighting. Several o the example characters have two weapons listed. For example the Tough Guy (pg. 22 of the Ars5 book) has as his primary combat form: "Axe & heater Shield".
But, heater shield is not a weapon and then, don't give attack/damage bonuses.
That's all the point of this topic 
scratches head Gotta disagree with you on that one. See page 176 of Ars Magica 5th Edition. The bottom three entries of the second section on the Melee Weapons table are: Shield, Buckler; Shield, Round; and Shield, Heater. If they are not Weapons, why do they appear on a table titled "Melee WEAPONS"?
They are on that table for, maybe, convenience? All are shields, all only add to defense, none are weapons. There is no other information in the surrounding paragraphs about extra damage done while wearing a shield, nor less damage done by not having one. Although it is not directly stated, it is obvious that they are for defense only.
Still, Lebo's point is valid.
Why not add secondary weapon there, much like shields. You get a small attack bonus, a damage bonus, but no extra defense.
It might be too simple to describe real life, but so is the rest of that combat system. Dual wielders can take sword & axe as their specialisation.
First, I was talking about the Rules as written. I am not saying I AGREE with them, that they make sense, or that I woudl use them in my game. I was joust pointing out that per the RAW, shields ARE weapons, and you can use both.
Second, I agree with Paris Sophia. Shields add to your combat stats just like other weapons do. They add to defense, and not attack and damage, but they are just another combat bonus. Why not just have two-weapon wielders just add the bonus's of their secondary weapon and be done with it? Personally I would make them choose which damage bonus they wanted to use, but the attack bonuses can stack, which increases both the odds of a hit, and the damage.
Also: I know people say wielding two weapons is really hard. I am sure that's true for anyone who has a Single Weapon skill of 0. I seriously doubt any of the people who are saying how hard it is spent 8-10 hours a day for a full season (3 months) practicing their chosen weapon form, and that's what it takes to get a skill of 1 in Ars5. Go do that, then come back and tell us all how a special skill is required.
2 of the guys in my gaming group are weapon trainers for reenactment. They say it is hard and I have this peculiar habit of deferring to their judgement in this kind of topics They say that the fighting style is quite different. They also laugh big time when they see that single weapon and shield and weapon were merged in this edition, though.
Cheers,
Xavi
Well, I met several people who dedicated their lives to Kendo (earning their money with it after practicing it for 60 years seven days a week) so yes, they are professionals. Though I do not know what their ability score in ArM5 would be, I deem it pretty high. However, they told me that weilding two swords is really hard and takes a live time to do it properly as well as someone suited for it. Most likely this refers to using both weapons effectively and striking with both of them (though not simultaniously). If you use one of them to parry only, this might be easier. So giving a main-gauche a +1 to attack bonus and +1 to defence bonus seems about right.
Dual Weapons I frequently use (in my real life training) are traditional paired weapons (tonfa, sai, etc.). But I can tell each of you that when using a katana one handed supplemented with a wakizashi in the off hand, it is incredibly difficult to do properly for form, much less for actual combat. That being said, personally I'm partial to staff weapons, spears, naginata and such but those are personal preferences, and suit the way I fight.
Hmm, sounds quite a bit like me there. 
Naginata rules! 
And Tonfa is the best way ever devised to knock out enemies, by letting THEM use them against you! 
Its hideously difficult. As i´ve noted before, while its totally ok to enter kendo tournaments dual-wielding, its ridiculously rare to see anyone actually do it. Thats because its so darned hard.
Oh yes, simultaneously as well. Those doing it the easy way by using welldrilled combination-attacks, those actually having mastered dualwielding by using both weapons seemingly independently which is the bloody hard way both to do, as well as to block, almost impossible to predict such attacks(which means anyone with less than extremely good reactions wont have a chance to block such attacks).
I would raise that bonus for a main-gauche a little, but overall yeah something like that. Better(than a shield) in close combat against single opponents, bad in group combat(because using a 2nd weapon means moving alot more and differently than otherwise, and not possible to move suitably together with others(especially not as part of a formation)) and useless (well almost) as protection against ranged weapons.
Its a tradeoff choice.
Try it yourself before you say something else you havent a clue about.
Using two weapons is nothing like using a single handed or two-handed weapon.
Im decent enough with a few weapons, but if i want to kick someones behind you certainly wont see me picking two weapons even though i have tried to get at least minimally competent with a few combinations, its simply too hard to use effectively. Even after a good deal of practise dualwielding, im more likely to hurt myself than someone else if moving from practise speed to fightingspeed.
And of all those i have practised with and against, i know less than a handful that are truly effective dualwielding, and except for those very few, i can easily smack around anyone else trying to face me with two weapons by using a single weapon of choice myself.
The few that are effective with 2 weapons though, they´re almost totally unbeatable one-on-one.
Even though speed is my best side, i simply cannot keep a skilled dualwielder away from me forever.
You either go all-out attack on them and keep them busy and hope they mess up before they can manage a counterattack (which of course you have barely any chance to parry since trying to hit them is a fulltime thing with all-out attacking), or you go total defense and likewise hope for a screwup on their part(and wish the opening also comes somewhere you can actually exploit it).
OK, so from what I am hearing: Dual-Wielding is INCREDIBLY HARD! So hard that almost no rational person should EVER attempt it!
If that's true then the solution is simple: Dual-wielding gives you a -5 to attack and defense if you attempt it. It gives you no bonuses of any kind. Oh wait... "It looks cool".
Problem solved.
Dual weapon styles do have certain advantages, though. The following list is not all encompassing:
- If one weapon breaks, you still have the other...
- If one weapon is dropped, or forcibly removed... you still have the other
- If you are well trained, (emphasis on well), you may be able to exploit the off-handed weaknesses in an opponent's defenses (again you have to know what you are doing with the weapons you are using)
- Psychologically, two weapons often make a single opponent seem more dangerous (though this is often not the case)
- Certain dual wield weapons are done so for enhanced defense, not offense (tonfa, sai, kama, are but examples)
- If wielding two weapons and one of your arms is injured, you still have the benefit of all the training you've done to allow you to reap some meaningful defense from your second weapon...
Again this list is not all inclusive.
Hard to learn and hard to master does not equate bad. It is as i said, darned effective IF used outside of formation combat(where it sucks badly).
A separate ability limited by single weapon ability should at least cover it somehow.
Indeed, Musashi was quite clear on the benefits of wielding two weapons at once. In addition to Angado's list i would add
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Hard to block two weapons, even if they are coming from the same direction
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Even harder to defend against if they are coming from different directions.
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Locking or knocking an opponents weapon is less effective if he can still attack with the other one
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Allows a combatant to both parry and attack at the same time. There are a few situations in fencing that allow this for single weapons but with two weapons you can block to the left while simultaneously striking from the right for instance.
Its hard to learn, but once you've got it, its quite useful. As always, situational, you don't want to be wielding a pair of katanas in a crowded corridor or as DireWolf75 said, in formation. But these things apply to long swinging weapons anyway and we don't let the combat rules get that detailed.
If a PC wants to hold a spare weapon in his off hand, who can object. Trying to use them in unison is apparently what is so difficult.
This seems far to "crunchy" for Ars5 combat.
Right, as I said... you get to look "cool". WOOO!
All of them are not appropriate to mythic Europe. Maybe in an "Ars-fu" game or something.
Maybe there should be some sort of Ambidexterity virtue or something, but in this case all the "very difficult" training you did so you could fludily move two pointy sticks around at the same time has been rendered moot. Might as well just practice off-handed only if you worry about this. ("I know something you do not... I am not left handed!")
Sure. You could learn to fight with a sword and chicken. If you parry with the chicken, you have dinner for that night.
Don't take it that way, it's useless.
We could have something like this:
- Devellop a skill in Dual Fighting.
- You can only fight with 2 light weapons, or 1 normal and one light.
- With 2 light weapons, you use your single weapon skill, and add in each category (attack, defense..) your Dual Weapon skill - 4, up to the weapon's bonus
- With 1 medium and 1 light, same mecanism, but - 5.