Would this need a breakthrough? Enchanter's Communion

Would this require a breakthrough?

  • No.
  • Yes. Minor.
  • Yes. Major.
  • Yes. Hermetic.
  • Yes, but I am uncertain what level.

0 voters

I am looking for my Verditius to create a variation on Wizard's Communion that lets multiple mages join to create enchantments more quickly. I have the mechanics worked out and it is pretty much the same as Wizard's Communion, but here is the question.
Since Wizard's Communion is one of those holdover spells from the Cult of Mercury (etc...) would this require a breakthrough first?

The help in the laboratory rules are already pretty powerful. A typical magus just out of apprenticeship will add 7 to the lab total. The magi in my game (20 years out of apprenticeship) have Magic theory values between 6 and 8 and one of the four characters has boosted his intellegence up to 5. No one has Puissant magic theory or inventive genious but one of the characters does have adept laboratory student and another has a magic theory affinity.

To put that into perspective; if one of the four magi in my game spent a single season getting tutored in leadership to get acquire leadership 2 (specialization lab work) they could rake in a bonus of more than 30 to their lab total if the other characters helped him, and the characters aren't especially lab focused.

I voted major but depending upon the particulars of your break through I could see it as minor as well.

My idea was that it was just like wizard's communion, except it multiplied the number of points accumulated at eh end of the season by the number of magi or maybe it divided the effective level of effect for the purpose of calculating the number of points accumulated (not sure yet). So it would not let you enchant something that you could not normally enchant, but it could be done wickedly fast.

IMO, I think the idea a little too powerful.
My Verdi can generate lab totals in the 140 range for a few TeFo, and 120's for the rest...
That total is already inflated by having a leadership score of two...(apprentices and Familiar)
Imagine if I could add the Bonisagus' lab bonus (18?) the other two full Magi (about 8-10 each), and the three other Apprentices (say 7 each)...

Lab total about 197.

Not bad for being about 30 years out of Gauntlet...

If I could add the other familiars into the mix too, that would raise it to ~220.

Your multiplication would increase this.

I voted Major, as that's most fitting thematically, but really I agree that it's just too powerful to allow into the game. As such, I would recommend simply not allowing it at all at any scale of breakthrough. (I find even the Hermetic amount of breakthrough points will not suffice to ward off the invention of an Hermetic breakthrough given a determined player, in a surprisinly speedy way.) I might allow it to be invented through uncovering Ancient Magic or Mystery initiations, where I can as an SG control the flow and rate of discovery to make sure the players will only get their greedy paws on this dicovery by the end of the saga.

How about allowing it as a minor - but only for charged items;)

Ah, yes. The Principles of Hermetic Management, by Frederick Taylor of Verditius. A very useful Mystery, if you can convince a bunch of magi to work on your potion assembly line. :stuck_out_tongue:

ANNO DOMINI MDDXXIII: The first "Talisman T" rolled out of the plant recently constructed at Verdi. :laughing:

Yes, Magus Henrius Ford of Verditius was quoted as saying, "You can have any technique or form you like, as long as it's Rego Corpus."

I think it's very possible in play but if you want my opinion, a magic item already very... I mean VERY powerful ! Sooo i'd make it a major breakthrough.

Still, keep in mind that it's possible to have aid in your lab for your enchantments. A bonisagus with +5 int, a lot of magic theory, inventive genius and some spare time can give you a big bonus to your lab total.

As a storyteller i'd refuse it because with some assistance from other mages and a little leadership score you can already have lot of mages working on a magical item.

on the otherhand, unless the item you are making is for general covanent use you're going to have to pay handsomly to get those other magi to help you.

I know it would take more than most would be wiling to pay for me to help in the lab to make a powerful item that has no benefit to me...But then I'm a semi paranoid tytalus who feels any but the closests of sodalis could turn on me..and even them I don't trust totally :stuck_out_tongue:

I still say you should allow it only for charged items - and not allow it to increase the maximum level of the effect...

(And for those not really thinking this through - that means you'd get not much more done than if people worked apart using the original lab notes...)

Just to clarify, this is how the spell would apear in the game (I'm hkdharmon's GM)

Wizards Union
(or whatever he wishes to name it) MuVi (Var)
R: Voice D: Mom T: Group
This spell lets the magi combine their power to enchant effects. The group of magi work together to enchant a specified effect through the unified power of the Union. This effect must be new, having no points gained towards its completion from previous work. Only one extra magus may join the Union for each magnitude of effect being enchanted.
All the magi in the gathering who know Wizards Union add the level at which they know it to get the effective level of the Wizard's Union. This combined total must be at least twice the level of the specified effect being enchanted.
One magus must roll for success as if enchanting the effect himself. However, the required points needed to complete the enchanting is divided by the number of magi participating in the union. This method of enchanting adds one botch dice per magus participating. If a botch occurs, all participants suffer the effects.
All effects enchanted this way must be completed during the season this ritual is cast. If the effect is not fully instilled in the item at the end of the ritual, all points gained towards its completion are lost.
Participating in a Wizards Union takes a full season.

So would we have to roll as if experimenting? Because you do not have to roll normally to enchant stuff.

There are no rolls made for enchantment unless you experiment (or have a lab with a warping score or a negative saftey modifier).

So your mechanics won't work as presented (they could be tweaked a bit to fit however).

The help in the lab rules already give a significant boost. I think that more advantages than the help in the lab rules provide will be very tricky to balance between too useful not to have and utterly worthless. What purpose does the advance serve in your story? Perhaps we can come up with an alternative that is cooler than "wizard's communion, but for enchanting".

Mostly I was just tossing around ideas for a Verdi flavored breakthrough with the guys and this came up. I may have to rethink it in light of current mechanics though.

There you go, it was only a matter of time before worker unions popped up. :stuck_out_tongue:


Definitely wrong parameters, but this really is more of a seasonal activity than a spell so that's not important.

Note that for nearly all projects of substantial size, i.e. those the Union will be considered for, this number will far exceed the number of lab assistants the lead magus can have.

Enchanting an effect does not need any roll. If you mean that he must roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart as if experimenting - now that might be an interesting disadvantage to to throw onto the process.

Note that it isn't clear at all whether Wizard's Communion is cast too. I argue that it never is.

You mean the leading magus uses his normal Lab Total, but the effective effect level of the invested power is divided by the number of participants in the Union? Well, as I said I think this is far too excessive. Consider the immense effect levels this will allow the magi to reach, and the effect such effects will have on the adventures and setting.

Also, is the effect level reduced for the purposes of raw vis too? How about other effects increasing the Lab Total - can familiars aid in this? Can other helpers? Can the participants of the Union? How will they spend their season, will they earn Exposure only from their efforts in the season?

Again, largely not applicable unless you mean 1) the Union spell must be cast, or 2) the leader must roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart as if experimenting.

Utilizing the Union properly may require bringing together a relatively large group of magi, making each learn a version of the Union, and making each spend a season with the others working on investing the effect. Since this is a MuVi effect, most magi would only be able to learn it to low level, so arranging for this method's to work in practice may be more difficult than I initially feared. Still, I think that when it DOES come to bear the effects can be very unsettling, allowing the magi to reach stupendous effective lab totals.

Err.. whoops, the roll thing was just left over from copy/paste, as well as the R/D/T.

Just left over from copying Wizards communion. But yeah, like W-C, its not exactly a spell.

I had considered this, still hadn't decided if it needed that additional cap yet.

Accidental hold over from copy/paste. Though yes, I would think that experimental results would apply to each magus (some are no brainers, like an explosion).

I concur here, I don't believe W-C is really cast like a normal spell.

No the effect level not your lab total are changed in any way, just the points you need to finish your enchantment. It does not let you make more power items, or reduce the cost of items, but allows you to make items a lot faster.

EX: Magus A wants to enchant a 20th level effect into a device. He has a lab total of 25, earning him 5 points per season of work towards instilling said effect. So, it would take him 4 seasons and 5 pawns of vis to gain the 20 points needed to complete the item.

Now he gets 3 buddies to do a Wizards Union. He has the same lab total, earns the same 5 points towards the instilling that level 20 effect, except now he only needs (20 / 4) 5 points to finish his enchantment, and he has the item in one season instead of a year.

I would think, like Wizards Communion, the participants would not need to know the spell (although it helps). And again, like Wizards Communion, it is in fact a spell (although a weird, rule breaking one) so the participants would have to be magi. The spell would count as the participants seasonal activity, and they would only qualify for exposure (or possibly adventure EP, if the creation of the item was part of a plot or some such).

Again, mostly just wasn't thinking straight when copying wizard's communion. But this would apply to experimentation botches.