Alright so I think I’ve made a mistake and opened a can of worms.
Recently I have convinced my long term gaming group to play ars magica but unexpectedly one player has really taken a liking to the Diedne. In truth I probably should have seen this coming since when we played mage the ascension he loved the Verbena and I think now that we’ve switch over he’s carrying the concepts and paradigm of that group over to the Diedne.
My question is would you let one of your players be aligned with the 13th house?
I imagine narratively it comes with a lot of weight as anyone connected to the diedne is marked for death by the order so he’d never have any true allies. Also the story implications surronding the player, his paren, and any remaining diedne along with their goals. This seems like the equivalent of wanting to play one of the extinct tribes/Fera from werewolf the apocalypse or one of those rare bloodlines from vampire the masquerade where the story will end up revolving around them and the other players getting less spotlight
Also I know ars isn’t about combat and from what I’ve seen no house is that much stronger than the others but aside from one virtue(Diedne magic) the diedne have nothing that makes them unique and stand out. A Verditius has her enchanting, lock a Bonisagus in a lab and he’ll redefine hermetic magic, Merinita know everything there is to know about faeries and then some. Etc Diedne just don’t have a niche on account them having never been playable so he might actually end up feeling bland compared to the others. I’m not even sure what starting house benefits I’d give them.
So yeah I’d like to know if anyone here would allow a player to be a Diedne.
Side note: I do have subrosa 13. I have tried to convince them to play a Bjornaer/Merinita/Miscellanea but they are really into pagan practices, neopagan scene, and celtic mythology so they feel like house Diedne would best represent the concept they have in mind. The player in question is not demanding this and they will understand if I ban them but I want to hear the thoughts of others before making a decision.
Which house are they pretending to be in? That would help in getting them to have some flavour. Also is the player intending to have the character take revenge on the slayers of their house, or convincing the rest of the order that the slaughter was a massive mistake, and the Diedne need to be rehabilitated in memory?
They would pretend to be part of Miscellanea mostly because it is filled with hedge wizard and other backwards folk so no one would ask too many questions. As for their overall goal they would like to build up the former house and prove their innocence as well as get them readmitted back into the order.
I have no issue with anyone taking Diedne Magic. But the kind of storyline you're talking about is more than that. It would need to be a central feature of the game. So it would depend on the story setup and the player lineup.
The reputation of House Diedne was destroyed among most Celtic people of Ireland before 800 AD as
(1) the House refused to recognize the native Irish wizards and the Coill Tri (TCI p.12),
(2) waged a war of extermination against druids refusing to join them (TCI p.111f The Coming of the Diedne),
(3) were not part of the Treaty of Cnoc Maol Reidh (TCI p.113).
So by 1220 surviving Diedne would be unlikely representatives of Celtic culture in Ireland and unlikely to have important allies there.
Take a look at TCI cp.8 The Province of Connacht, especially p.44 The Pact of Oireadh, for Celtic magic workers around 1220 and their schemes. This might form a good background for Celtic plotters in 1220 Ireland.
There is a big difference between allowing Diedne magic - which is a canon virtue, so is not really up to debate, and playing a full-fledge Diedne.
First, you have to define who were the real Diedne. This is left fully open to each Saga to interpret: devil worshippers ? Real politician masterminds ? Powerful magicians with several uncovered secrets ?
I fully agree with @temprobe on the fact that it would become the center of the Saga.
I personally would not allow to make a full-fledge Diedne mage. It means that you, as ST, have to front load a lot of unanswered questions left open in the canon, and it will definitely spoils the story. It would also force you to find justifications on how the most organised House of the Order (Tremere), which has a group of magis dedicated to uncover survivors (the Acorn Vexiliation) would have missed several generations of Diedne magis being fostered within the Order until the PC.
I would allow a Seeker trying to unearth what really happened, what were those secrets House Tremere was so much afraid, and as the Seeker uncover fragment of truth, they are uncovering new magic abilities (like reconstructing a Mystery Cult). And as the Seeker progress, they might attract unwanted attention from magis determined to see the truth remained buried.
You will also need to make sure that all the other players are willing to participate, but regular magis would likely report very early on the existence of Diedne magis, even just to make sure that they are not facing adiabolist/dangerously delusional magi. So either they all play along - and they have a solid reason to do so or it is not possible. A magi Diedne will force all the other characters to make a choice to take part or betray him, making for a very short Saga.
I already told them that. Told them exactly what happened when Diedne landed on the isles and that they were ruthless expansionist (also that diedne(founder) was gaulic) who very much were my way or the highway when it came to any magic traditions they came across. Still they want to play them and I guess change the former houses image.
Think he just sees Diedne being the closet house to a traditional druid. Even though every house is filled with pagans and can learn any kind of magic Diedne is presented as these gaulic witch priest. It’s like how any mage can be a necromancer but house tremere are the necromancers or how house flambeau are the pyromancers.
First and foremost yes all players are fully on board with them being a diedne but I like I said they’ve never played before and even though I love them I know they haven’t read the lore books I sent. I very clearly told them that this was a death sentence but they are still on board. Does it really matter if I have their approavel when they don’t understand the ramifications?
I suppose if I were to go along with this then we as a whole table would have to sit down and come up with a concrete idea of just who the diedne were and how some diedne managed to survive this long which does sound like a lot of work but could I guess could be fun in a way if everyone is willing to pitch in. I’ve come across quite a few story seeds of infernalist hiding out in the order and secrets lying right underneath covenants. If this is case then even if they have the answer the problem becomes finding concrete evidence and trying to convince the order to overturn the ruiling when very powerful magi are convinced the diedne were nothing but demon worshippers.
I will very much relay what you have said about the seeker as that could be a nice middle ground for what they want.
Once again the players are onboard and One player I know for a fact is going to come up with some reaosn for why they’ll protect the diedne( That’s that irl so) and the other will likely extort the diedne for something to keep quiet. That does bring up a question. Is there anyway to tell if someone’s a Diedne when they’re trying to hide it? I don’t know if it’s possible to tell the difference between formulaic and sponteous magic being cast. Also doesn’t help the player is planning on taking subtle magic, quiet magic, and anything can help them conceal casting.
A Bonisagus that researches the gift has found a way to open the gift in a way similar to the Diedne. He calls for Magi to participate in his research and allow him to open the gift of their apprentices. Magi that still hold affection for the defunct house answers the call and the house is reborn (kinda).
There is still lots to be done. Rebuild the lore, the way of life, etc. Could it be that one of the masters is actually a Diedne in hiding? What will the Acorn Vexiliation do? Is one of the masters a holy Magi seeking redemption of the Order? Are these new magi seeking the rebirth of House Diedne or will they combine the aspects of their individual houses with a Cult of Diedne?
Temprobe and Ezekhiel3571 have given great insight into the problems surrounding having a full-blown Diedne in the group, so I won't repeat it.
I personally would not allow it. If you are tempted to allow it, then it might be something to keep for your next saga; all of your players are learning both the rules and setting lore, and throwing a huge alteration into the first saga might be a big ask. After they have a great experience with the vanilla version, there will be plenty of time to create a new saga around elements they are intrigued by.
I probably would, but make sure they run into clear evidence that the Diedne did perform at least some of the dark acts they are accused of.
Clear evidence. The player unearths a definite Diedne site where human sacrifices were performed and their life energy used to enrich the soil. You know this because the harrowed ghosts say so in chorus and attack the remnant Diedne for their horrifying torment.
What little we know of the Gaulish “druids” (which is where Diedne came from) comes mostly from Caesar. The druids that a modern-day person familiar with paganism likely know are from the Welsh or Irish side of things. Those are the druids that got wiped out by House Diedne; any survivors would have gone into House Ex Miscellanea and loathe House Diedne.
It’s likely those druids would be similar to Gruagachan (from Hedge Magic revised). You could suggest they play a gruagach as a “druid”, or be from an obscure Ex Miscellanea tradition that has Cailleach Magic (HMRE p56 & 78) as its free Major Virtue with the Hedge Wizard flaw instead of Dark Secret. They’ll still be outsiders, just not hunted by the entire Order. And they’ll be the kind of “druid” that the player is visualizing (although Verbena mages seem like they were more visualized as neopagan druids than authentic).
How attached are you and your players to the lore, and how specifically invested is the potential Diedne player in the Dark Secret/Hidden Lineage of it all? If they’re JUST into the Druid Vibes of it all, how do you feel about setting this in an alternate timeline where the Diedne won (and Tremere, or some other house fell), or perhaps where the Schsim war never happened? It might take a decent amount of work to redo the chronology, but oh look there’s already some ideas here.
I do like the Cailleach Magic/Hedge Wizard approach.
If you’re going whole hog Diedne in the canon(ish) setting, and you want Diedne to have more stuff, I’d say pick one (or more) of the Mysteries and let that be their thing. Hermetic Sacrifice seems like an obvious heading to persue. Divination and Augury if you don’t want to have to figure out all the ins and outs of summoning spirits, since no one else has that as their Thing.
Context: A while back I was noodling on the idea of a Diedne Magic character who can use Hermetic Sacrifice to boost their total for Divination and Augury by reading the entrails of the creature so sacrificed.
TLDR, yes, I would let a player be a Diedne, because you’re going to be able to tell interesting stories that way. You might just have to find a way to make everyone else equally exciting, to balance Diedne out. This actually probably works in the character’s favor - if all eyes are on, idk, the Tytalus who’s training a dragon as a mount and the Verditius who accidentally got made into a Bishop, your Diedne can stay under the radar by being less weird.
If you can see a spell being cast, I think you can tell if it's formulaic or spontaneous, in the same way you can tell its Form (p.83). Subtle and Quiet Magic would mean a Per + Awareness roll was needed: if the spell is cast completely without words or gestures, I think this would either be a hard roll or impossible.
But what's harder is: if you know it's a spontaneous spell, can you tell it has produced the kind of higher casting total that indicates Diedne magic? This has been debated before: my opinion is that it's just about impossible without detailed knowledge of the caster under suspicion. Spontaneous magic is quite chancy: maybe they got lucky, or maybe their arts are better than you thought.
My thought woul be to allow it, and then take the player by surprise when they find out that they are not only up against the entirety of the Hermetic order but also a rival faction that believes they are the true descendants of Diedne but have a very different idea of what that means…
I would not allow a player to play a Diede, for three reasons.
There is no House Diedne. He can play an Ex Misc mage with an unbroken line of masters that leads back to a mage from House Diedne, who transmitted their secrets and were not discovered - but two mages (master and apprentice) don't make a House. It's different from Verbena, which are an established tradition. Playing a Diende means having to make lots of decisions about his relationship to the Order and his House, and for the SG to define the parts of history that were intentionally left unclear. A first saga should be pretty standard, to get people to learn about Mythic Europe, before making major changes to it.
His goal, "build up the former house and prove their innocence as well as get them readmitted back into the order" is simply impossible in canon sagas. Many Houses and powerful mages have huge stakes in this. I'd say proving Diedne's innocence would cause another sequence of events that might devastate the Order.
I'd be very wary of the possibility that a player religious feelings bleed into the game. He already seems to assume that House Diedne was innocent, which is not a given.
Communicating clearly and talking about expectations and what might happen is key. I would never allow a player to make a choice and then let them find out that it was a bad one during the game.
I might let him take Diedne Magic and maybe let him discover that one of his ancestors was a Diedne who never told his apprentice in order to keep his secret. But I'd have a long talk with him about the implications, what to do and not to do and how his story should play out, so that everyone is on the same page.
I would certainly not bar a player from having a "Diedne" magus a priori. I mean, Diedne Magic and the suggested Dark Secret Flaw are there for a reason.
The fundamental issue is whether the storyline of such a character can successfully merge with those of other characters in the saga. In this sense I disagree that the Diedne issue would necessarily would become the focus of the entire saga per se: getting House Diedne reabilitated would certainly be saga-defining, but an ex-Miscellanea magus who traces his lineage all the way back to the Diedne and is constantly hunting "at the edge of the saga" for evidence that the Diedne were just innocent victims of a Tremere-Guernicus conspiracy can certainly work well in many sagas, perhaps most.
We are playing a saga which started in 785. Diedne and Tremere were the two houses unavailable to players (Ex miscellanea too because it didn't exist... in fact, they are right in the middle of that phase (which takes longer than in the source books ^^ ) which is center for our campaign, the players having been with Pralix on the island, fighting damhan Allaidh, negotiating a peace with his subordinates while he fled to the continent).
I would never allow Diedne because the main problem is: what was a diedne? Diedne magic as a major virtue would not be adequate as house virtue, nor count as a "normal" major virtue, since it's innate flaw cannot apply at the time of the foundation of the order.
So I decided that Diedne had a "spontaneous ceremony" house minor virtue and a free major flaw which essentialy is: cannot share knowledge of diedne, if it's done, it's mind wipe as a sort of ordeal of the diedne welcoming ceremony (like verditius have the "must use Casting tools" or bjornaer have the "no familiar" flaw in their own mystery).
If you decided that, then why not but... diedne magic is already a death sentence for any magus a bit too flagrant. (because if one case is tolerated, the house can be reformed especially inside Ex miscellanea, something that Tremere house at least would never allow seen the burning accorn vexillation group). Why add more to the plate of a player?
And depending on the relation with other players: will they be his enemy or defend him? My personal experience in the troupe was that the Diedne magus became the enemy of most magi of their "historical" enemies' houses. That can become quite bad for the fun of the players because not trusting the other players can be bothersome for some players. Other like to backstab their team mates... so it depends on your troupe.
Houses can be bad, because some people apply them like a straight jacket. The same kind of people who will say horoscopes are stupid, will happily divide magi in to 12 stereotypes.
The need to clear Diedne’s name; or re-establish the house; or any other Diedne stuff. Why? The magi may not care for Diedne at all. As an adult he may be epically annoyed his parens has signed him up for a death sentence, and the only reason he has not turned on his parens, is he knows he will be executed also. If the magi is not deeply invested in the Diedne way, that makes some things less risky.
There are a few key question you need to ask yourself, and considering how you like, or do not like the answers, should help to decide yes or no to allowing a Diedne.
How much will this dominate the story and distract from the story you had planned?
Are you willing to accept that much distraction?
Will the player accept saying the wrong thing at the wrong time will sign his character’s death warrant with no chance of a reprieve?
Will the player accept he needs to modify his behaviour at times? A just gauntleted wizard consistently casting spontaneous spells across various techniques and forms without getting tired will draw suspicion.
Do the other players accept that if they side with the Diedne magi and it is found out, their character will also be killed?
Do you want to change the history, so Diedne Magic does not carry Dark Secret with it?
If your players are familiar with White Wolf games, then let them play a “Diedne” and then have NPC Diedne hunters turn up a few sessions in. If the player screws up their cover even slightly, kill their character. Tell them that taking anything that requires a “Dark Secret” flaw is a colossal risk, and if they were playing Vampire or Werewolf and had taken a similarly doomed flaw they’d have been equally screwed. Let’s face it, people who volunteer to play the incredibly-doomed subgroub (like a Salubri in Vampire or a tiny group in Werewolf) want to be persecuted and possibly martyred, which is why they chose the very oppressed group.
You need to make a choice as to who the Diedne were. If they were the vicious human-sacrificing people the Tremere make them out to be, leave evidence at Diedne sites of human corpses and magical experiments upon victims. If they were misunderstood, leave evidence of the Diedne happily collaborating with other houses, like friendly letters between Diedne magi and Merinita. If you go the full Gaer Hill letter route (the downloadable supplement to Sub Rosa 13) then have it turn out that their Diedne Magic is in fact Cthonic Magic (from Realms of Power: The Infernal) in disguise, and they have been misled by their masters, and have “Diedne” hunters turn up and laugh at them for their naivete before putting them on trial.