There has been some criticism of the fact that Tremere have an mMF in certamen as their House virtue. On the one hand, there is the drawback that they cannot take another Focus, and on the other hand, they have an overwhelming advantage in certamen (a bonus of +5 or more for most middle-aged magi, depending on the choice of forms, of course).
I have seen some people use "Puissant certamen" instead of the mMF, giving a flat +3 to your Totals.
In 4e, there was an Ability (Skill) called certámen, which was available to all magi. What if we transfer this to 5e, but restict its availability by requiring a virtue? How about this:
Certamen Duelist (Minor Hermetic Virtue):
You are specially trained in certamen. Choosing this Virtue confers the Ability Certamen 1.
Certamen (Arcane Ability): Fighting magical duels. Add your score in this Ability to your Initiative, Attack, and Defense Totals in Certamen. In addition, you have a limited repertoire of certamen styles, or schools (HoH:TL p. 135) - one for every point you have in the Certamen ability. Every time you raise the Ability by one point, you may choose a new school. Specialties: Any single Art.
It frees up the Focus, it reduces the advantage of the Tremere in certamen, and it imposes a cost on getting really good at certamen (+3 is not too expensive). You could also take Puissant certamen if you want to double down on it.
If you could choose between Certamen Duelist and mMF (Certamen) as your Tremere house virtue, which would you take? What do you think about this option?
discouraging any realistic magus to start a certamen against a Tremere. They will likely either use indirect methods, or go for a wizard's war if they feel really needing it. Thus it diminishes the interest for certamen from any magus from any other house.
for a Tremere, it's almost a "you will never be good at anything because you have no focus" sentence. Most Tremere magi thus feel either generalist or weak against other magi of the same age (and even sometimes vs other magi of a younger age). That's something PC don't want, hence why - ni my games - I noticed so few Tremere magi (at the opposite of Bonisagus, which is the most love house by far).
I didn't play the previous edition, but anything giving them a "house" bonus will only fix the 2d aspect. I'd prefer if it was a Jerbiton/bonisagus thing, in the sense that you can have the certamen bonus (if it remains a focus, not preventing another one since this one is clearly not something nature created, but a manufactured by man focus which could very well be added on a "natural" focus) or something else like puissant intrigue which is quite thematic for the house.
I understand why folks house rule this. I get it. I’ve played Tremere. But it’s important to remember the vision of the house in True Lineages is based around the fact that Tremere can’t have other Magical Focuses. Much of that chapter makes no sense if you house rule this.
The fact that Tremere characters can regularly and reliably borrow specialists, books, vis, or other resources from their house is explicit compensation for their lack of Magical Focus. It’s a cool ability, incredibly useful, and a balancing factor. When folks give Magical Focuses back to Tremere magi, do those same folks take these free house resources away? No they do not.
I encourage players and story guides to reconsider house ruling this. I understand why we do it. But it contradicts the entire vision of the house, and it ignores mechanical advantages given to the house to compensate for this very limitation.
Not to mention that there are other virtues out there that can be used. A magical focus isn't a necessity on all characters. And if you want to specialize, you can do it without it. Just grab two affinities, rwo puissant and a potent magic and you're already specialized enough. Or grab Elemental Magic and a good technique. Or specialise in Finesse. Or get Flawless Magic, leadworker and puissant penetration. Or, or, or. I'm not saying the issue doesn't exist. I've seen some troupes default to Skilled Parens. But in my view, if I consider playing a Tremere, the house virtue blocking a magical focus isn't my necessary stumbling block because I rarely need both magical focus and potent magic.
Of course you can take elemental magic etc. But a focus is generally the easiest path for a player to say "my character does THAT and he is very good at THAT". For many new players, it's obviously a good starting point and hence, they never select Tremere.
I really don't think it's as dramatic as you make it sound.
Tremere are good at certamen. It's their thing. It doesn't mean they are invincible at it. You just need to be careful and prepare well. IMO, this does not need fixing.
You don't need a focus to be good at something. It makes it easier to be good, but saying that Tremere can't be good at anything is just silly.
Really? Where does it say that in the book? I always thought the resources you get from the House compensate you for the seasons you lose because you have to serve the House in some way.
Edit: I found the statement on HoH:TL p. 120: "The system of aid is the Tremere alternative to the
fantastic powers granted to other Houses [...] The system of aid also compensates Tremere magi for the seasons of study they lose in the service of their House".
Not being able to have a magical focus other than Certamen is part of the House identity IMO. I'd want to preserve that somehow even if you change the mechanics of their house virtue. And to be clear I say that as a Tremere enthusiast.
I should note I don't really like the design of Magical Focus, because it gives such extreme rewards for specialization. If you build for it, it very quickly outclasses any other Art-boosting Virtue and it creates a whole new tier of top-end magical feats are completely out of reach for anyone who doesn't have a Focus.
That works fine if having a focus is rare and notable, but not if almost every magus has one.
In the case of the Certamen focus, the effect is a bit different, and as @Einauge has said it doesn't make Tremere invincible at Certamen, because you can't rely on getting to use your favored TeFo combination, but it still creates some weird dynamics.
As far as I'm concerned though, the only thing that's really awkward about the Certamen focus is that it means Tremere can't have Mythic Blood without some kind of house rule, even though True Lineages and Against the Dark gives multiple suggestions for Mythic Blood that are thematic for them, and presumed to be relatively common.
What is this based on? It's an honest question. To me, the core identity of the House is
hierarchy: Most Tremere don't hold their own sigil, they owe their House service and their superiors obedience. In return, they are supported by their House.
warriors: Tremere are always prepared for war and ready to defend the Order against its enemies.
certamen: Tremere developed and pushed for the codification of certamen.
I don't think not having a focus other then certamen is up there. The focus thing is new in 5e, and yes, the House got a complete re-write in 5e - but I just don't see where and why not having another focus should be so central.
Well, I might be overstating the case a bit, because in the end, "not having a focus" is just a mechanical symptom of what I really mean, it's not the point in itself, but how I see it, House Tremere views magic very instrumentally. They follow doctrine. If one magus accomplishes something great, they want others to be able to build on it. If one fails, they want another to be able to step in and continue the work. Think of how they collect and pass on their members' Talismans for example.
A Focus is an individual and idiosyncratic expression of the Gift, that cuts against this. If e.g the Tremere Architects have a library of Terram spells they use that suits the house's needs, a magus who comes along with a focus in glass or silver won't be well served by those spells, and any focus-related spells they make, likely won't be practical for their sodales. So the way a Focus tends to shape a magus' repertoire is kind of against their ethos.
"All Tremere magi have a Minor Magical Focus in Certamen. This makes them excellent duelists, but means that they cannot, age for age, match the power of other magi with similar interests. Like their Founder, they work around this problem with diplomacy, preparation and supporters." [p. 131]
I guess this is what you meant by your reference to doctrine?
"There are many roles, common in other Houses, that Tremere magi rarely perform. Tremere magi cannot have magical focuses other than certamen, so they hire magi from other Houses to provide specialized services. Major spell research is sponsored with the aid of Magi from House Bonisagus. The House contracts Verditus magi to construct many of its magic items [...]" [p. 132]
I'd say that Verditius the best enchanters among all Houses, regardless of a focus. This also holds for Bonisagus researchers, but less so.
Of course Tremere also specialize (this refers to roles):
"A young magus who holds his own sigil is [...] expected to become a specialist in a particular field that serves the needs of the House." [p. 123]
"Tremere magi are trained to be useful to the House. Virtually every magus is combat capable, and almost all have a field of special expertise." [p. 125]
A Tremere with a focus in necromancy in not less of a Tremere to me. You could say that a Tremere with a focus is not flexible enough to become the kind of specialist his House might need. I'd reply that a mage's Art scores also constrain his career choice, and I've never seen anyone argue against a Tremere taking Affinity or Puissant Art. A focus also doesn't make you worse. If you take an architect and give him a focus in glass, he's still just as good an architect as before.
I get your argument for uniformity. I just think you could use the same arguments to oppose a Tremere taking Elementalist - but nobody does.
It's not really a question of dramatic, it's a matter of realistic side. Why would anyone start a rigged contest of wits?
Perhaps those are the players I played with from 18 years, but I have never seen a certamen started against a Tremere. Between non Tremere, sure. But when it came to Tremere, it was either a wizard's war to obtain exactly what the certamen would have been enough for, or political manoeuvers.
And for the focus I already explained my opinion, it's not to be good (a major potent or even a minor one is often better). It's to be good easily and quickly compared to seasoned players who know the subtilities and how to maximize everything. Potent magic is often better at low age, but it requires a lot more investment than a focus from the player, and not all (and from what I noticed almost none) players give that time to the game.
I think this has been discussed several times before. For me, the fact that Tremere are superior at certamen is clearly established. Taking that away from them would change a lot, so for me that is out of the question. They also have a vested interest in keeping certamen the accepted way to resolve disputes, so they should not to let people get away with declaring wizard's war in order to avoid certamen (depending on their influence in the tribunal). Your saga is obviously different, so we should agree to disagree. Again, this has been discussed on this forum before and is too far from the question in the opening post, so it is not something I'm interested in discussing here.
Aside for people reading along: do NOT take a focus in "glass." It's hardly ever applicable to spells and is absolutely the worst thing to enchant.
I've a Verditius with a minor Potent in glass and aside from the +3 to Lab Totals it doesn't really come up even having customized his spell list with Terram spells about glass. It's so narrow I expanded it to "glass + clear crystals" but even that is crazy narrow compared to most canon mMF examples. Don't do it!
To sum up: Unfortunately, the idea of reviving the certamen Ability was not discussed at all, due to the fact that people seem to hold very strong opinions on this. I don't think the minor Focus is so central to the Tremere concept that it must not be changed. I also don't think having this minor Focus is a major handicap that makes Tremere the weakest House.
Taking a certamen Ability frees up the Focus, but at the cost of having to spend xp in order to have a substantial advantage at certamen. In my opinion, that is not necessarily bad - it could mean that most Tremere do have an advantage at certamen, but not a huge one, so there could be really specialized certamen champions that fill this niche.
I do like the idea of reviving the Certamen Ability. It could be quite strong (for Certamen), especially if it is stacked with Puissant or Affinity, but two things help to mitigate the power of the Ability:
First, it advances as an ability. Scores will likely stay in the single digits -- often the low single digits. Only truly exceptional investments of xp will give a mage a very large advantage, but that is exactly as it should be.
Second; Certamen currently is handled as totals of several other Abilities and Arts, adding the new Certamen Ability score to each relevant total for Initiative, Attack, and Defense (not sure if adding it to Resistance would be too potent) is only a fractional change.
Additionally, being able to choose a new 'style' per point of Ability gives characters more flavor -- some magi will know (and be able to use) specific styles, and not know certain other styles. In this case, choosing a specialty might allow the Magus to fight 'as a follower' of that style, which might also lead to making interesting choices.
I chose to add the certamen Ability only to those three totals where you roll a stress die, because I also had the feeling that adding it to Resistance would be too good. I'm wondering whether it's too much to include Initiative, because the minor Focus only influences Attack and Defense.
As for styles, the standard is that it takes one season to learn a style, but only one style can be mastered. The ability would let you learn styles, but not change your mastered style. There is the Harenarius Virtue which allows a second style as a follower, and I don't want to encroach on that.
Certamen as an Ability just moves the Tremere's extra cost from their Virtues to their Abilities. This matters less now because the Mystery Houses have similar Ability point pits in their cult lores, but basically it means if you are an adult Tremere you need to spend 75 or so XP on something without a lot of game effect.
Certamen only works if the Order is an Honour (Shame) culture where refusal matters. After the Sundering it becomes a Fear culture or Guilt culture, I'd argue, which is easier for real world players to understand.
The way around this, IMO, is to attach punative Reputations to those who refuse to duel. Is that fun though?
On the other side, even by its own lghts, a Certamen Focus is, admittedly, a problem because it undermines dueling as a dispute resolution mechanism. One of the core tenants of most duelling cultures is the ancient Irish idea that the blades must be of equal length. A certamen focus means Tremere are always bringing a short sword to a dagger fight.
This changes the historical calculation. In, say, Iceland where you took turns trying to smash through the other duelist's own personal shield with you own personal axe, you might not want to duel the guy who was eight feet high and had an axe twice the weight of yours. Better to take you case to the lawyers.
Having a choice between a minor Focus and the certamen Ability is better than having a mandatory minor Focus. If you don't want to pay for the Ability, you're exactly as well off as you were under the standard rules. If you really want another Focus, you now have an alternative. If that's a difficult decision, I'm very happy, because the two options are balanced.
As to the costs: I'd expect many characters to spend 15 or 30 xp, exactly becaust certamen doesn't come up a lot, and if it does, a +2 or +3 gives you a pretty good edge for an acceptable price.
So yes, there is a cost, but I don't see the Tremere minor Focus as a problem that needs to be solved.
For the questions around certamen in general, I'll open a new topic.
Eh, that's not really a compelling argument against Certamen being an Ability when Verditius is over there spending experience on their House Mystery Cult Lore, Philosophiae, and probably more than one Craft Abilities just to take basic advantage of their House Virtue.
I would let anybody increase the certamen ability, but give Tremere Puissant in it or something. I would also only have it apply to attack and defense.
There would be a strong culture in the house of having high Certamen ability so a Tremere character would still be a difficult opponent but not insurmountable.
For those that think not having a focus and being far better at certamen than everyone else even without additional practice is necessary for Tremere.
Members of house Tremere cannot take a magical focus. This is due to their focus on Certamen granting them Puissant Certamen, Affinity Certamen, and Careful Certamen.
This couples preventing them from accessing one of the best virtues with 3 minor virtues in the same ability, they still have to practice but certainly have an advantage.