Character Creation Discussions (OOC)

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: The Heir of Laimunt Valley
121

Post-Gauntlet Advancement Guidelines (proposal)

Overall, each character should accumulate approximately 40 xp, 2 pawns of raw vis and 1 Warping Point per year of post-Gauntlet advancement. By tradition, Gauntlets take place near the end of the Spring season, so the first season of advancement should be Summer of the year the charater is Gauntleted.

An average season is thus worth 10 xp. A specific season may yield a bit more or less xp, depending on the narrative, but things should average out over time. So a season of study from the library could yield 15 xp, followed by a season of practice that only yields 5 xp. This reduced season does not need to happen immediately after the better season.

A virtue that boost xp received from a specific type of activity (such as Book Learner) should not trigger more than twice a year.

A season of laboratory work costs 10 xp. The character still receives the normal 2 xp of "free" exposure (as described in ArM5 p.163) for that season in addition to the results of his lab work.

Stories are treated as any other season, except that they are a good way to explain the raw vis and Warping Points that the character gains. Small mementos can also be obtained during such stories, but they should not provide something of high value to the character. If it does, you should reduce the amount of raw vis you gain for that year by a reasonable amount (ask the troupe for an assessment).

Build Points represent things that will help the covenant. You can spend your 50 bp on things like books, lab texts, enchanted items or specialists, but not vis (stock or sources) nor laboratories. They should also be things that are for the covenant, not your exclusive personal use (e.g. a enchanted item for your lab). The acquisition of things purchased with build points should be worked into your narrative, but they do not require any real cost (though you can work a fictional one into your narrative).

The raw vis you gain (from the yearly 2-pawn allotment, from a Personal Vis Source, or from vis extracted during a lab activity) can be accumulated for use later in the saga, used for your laboratory activities, or spent to purchase magical items or services. The rates for purchase of items should be about the same that Verditius magi charge (3 pawns per 10 levels for a lesser enchantments, more for greater items). Services cost 1 pawn per magnitude of the service provided (so a level 40 longevity ritual would cost you 8 pawns, for example).

These are just broad guidelines. Do not look for the most optimal way to use them. If something isn’t covered, ask. If you feel it isn't generous enough, let's talk about it!

2 Likes
122

Note that one thing I considered was the biais of such a flat amount of xp versus low current scores when studying from books. It easy to get a low-Level, high-Quality book for the Arts (and Magic Theory to a lesser extent).

Perhaps a further adjustment should be applied:

  • If the current score in the Art is 3 or less, multiply the xp by 1.5
  • If the current score in the Art is 9 or less, multiply the xp by 1.25
  • If the current score in Magic Theory is 3 or less, multiply the xp by 1.25
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Not that l see necessity: one could just get a primer and study from it.

124

Once play starts, certainly.

But we are talking about post-Gauntlet advancement before we start play. You don't "get a primer and study it", in the same way that you don't "study a primer" when spending xp during apprenticeship.

The adjustement would ensure that we don't penalize someone who wants to broaden his magus' Arts during post-Gauntlet years.

125

So buying a book during post-Gauntlet that we then own and read is something you'd like us not to do?

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You can purchase a book with build points and study from it. But that study is still constrained by the advancement guidelines.

Otherwise we quickly run into a process of "buy that book, read it, exchange it for another book, read that, repeat" that makes an end-run around the advancement guidelines.

(Yes, I've seen that before :roll_eyes: )

127

No, I don't want to see that end-run thing happen. But if we spend BP on something or buy something ourselves, I would think we should get to keep it and benefit from it. That was part of what I liked about the narrative process. I feel like this is going backward, whittling away the narrative process to favor a variant on the books: 40/year-8/(non-study season).

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I don't disagree with you, callen, it is a step back from a completely free-form narrative process.

But a fully narrative advancement process can result in some wildly different level of advancement between the players, as some interpret that specific resources are readily available (like a L7Q20 summa or an hyper-specialized trainer) to tailor their advancement to whichever works best for them.

Some of you have expressed a desire for the overall amount of xp to be approximately the same per year across the magi. I don't see how we can do that without some numerical guidelines.

On top of that, if you can purchase books with vis or seasons of service, then what's the point of having build points?

I'm trying to find a middle road.

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Maybe if we bump it a bit, say 12 xp per season, that gets us into the territory where we can narrate access to a good book for a few seasons, with a couple of other seasons with lower practice/exposure xp, the end result is pretty similar to earning vis to then spend on a good book and read it.

And rather than having a lab season "cost" xp, we simply budget exposure xp as part of the overall planned xp per year, allowing higher xp in other seasons.

I still have a question regarding vis, how much we earn doing things other than extracting it in a lab? Should we just treat that as virtual extraction picking different Arts? or set a base rate? I'm thinking of spoils, from Wizard's Wars, Marches, expeditions to deal with hostile forces, etc.

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That was what the 2 pawns per year represented. Vis found in stories, minus whatever was used for punctual needs (hospitality rights of a peregrinator, paying the services of a redcap, healing ritual, access to a Mercere Portal, etc.)

131

I see, so that's meant to be "profit", not "gross"? (ie we don't have to pay our peregrinator fee out of that?)

I know from games I've run that you generally get a pretty good haul of vis if you're giant-hunting or something like that. (More than extracting but obviously with more risk; which could be reflected in expenditures for healing taking it back down to extraction amounts)

1 Like
132

I'll start with my feelings here:

  1. I like Arthur's narrative approach, and I'd really like to try it.
  2. I hate BP because; they're so far off that they discourage many reasonable solutions and encourage ridiculous min-maxing. The also lack flavor.

Now to put some thought into it...

What if we don't bring any BP. Instead, we establish some estimated regular vis salary, maybe slightly higher than the 2 pvf/year Arthur estimated since we won't have any BP. Maybe it's better for some but they pay a peregrinator fee so it comes out the same, for example. Then we say our covenant(s) have something like half a dozen reasonable books we'd like to read. Anything else needs to be lower quality or purchased. The Cow and Calf Oath applies to purchased books, so you can't just sell them off. But things we purchase we can bring with us, and we all expect to contribute a fair share to the new covenant, be that books or vis or something else, when we arrive. Sure, half of us may buy an Imaginem Root and give it to the covenant; so be it. Then we write out our years and just check them each other for being reasonable. For example, studying a Quality-18 Root is quite reasonable (L5Q15 is pretty much guaranteed to be too low to be considered a Root.), while a Quality 15 tractatus should cost you a fortune.

133

Thanks for the clarification. the only problem I see is with balance between seasonal activities that aren't specifically about study. I'm a spell freak and this method seems to benefit me at the expense of someone going for raw learning. Same with vis extraction. We are able to fully benefit from those activities while being constrained on the others.

I would suggest the following. Allow us to spend BP on books freely, then study those books. Also allow us to spend personal resources on books per the normal rules, and study from those. Simply forbid any book selling in pre-game...realistic no but most covens aren't sitting around anxious to buy random books at a moment's notice. As part of our buy in to the new coven, assume we turn all books over to the library, then if we have books we personally want copies of, we can arrange to make those copies in game.

For people that want to borrow time in a library, simply assume average books of the range you mentioned with no cost (or a cost mixed into the assumed spending.

Personal resources spent are going to the coven...BP spent is on books the character will get lesser value out of at a later date...win - win?

134

I'm reading the various proposals. There seems to be 3 different ways to go: narrative, build points, or modified core book advancement.

My mind isn't made up. I'll sleep on it. I'd also like to hear from the players who haven't taken a position.

135

The way I'd like it:

Do it narratively. Assign a ca. xp pr. year for a magus to get (as you have). Assign a fair amount of vis each year to get (as you have). Assign guidelines for other things to happen - warping, lab work, items from adventure etc. (as you have). Let us players players assign these things within reason to our abilities and arts.

Focus less on whether or not a player reads from ”The perfect Summae”, or buys an excellent tractatus in itself, but more about if during say a 6year post-Gauntlet period, he reads 8 ”perfect Summae”; 1-2 is fine, 8 probably isn't. Let a really good adventure happen once or twice that gives a specific item that magus wants – a flawless diamond, a favour from an archmage; but again, don't let this happen 8-10times. If it is important to the magus to get an apprentice early, let him, but then he might not find a nice magical item.

As goes for BP to add to the covenant – I think it would be easiest to say: let one of the last seasons before joining the covenant be a story where the magus gets the 50BP worth of items, books, vis, specialists etc. Then he has no time for using them, ie. Fill out the last seasons with other things. Then as he gets to Laimunt, the Heir decides that the 50BP worth of ”loot” is a good amount for joining the covenant. Basically you get to decide what goes into the covenant, but not use it post-gauntlet/pre-campaign.

Last bit: The books you purchase with vis, or the things you get from stories/narrative description, the grog or two you mgiht bring are yours. So clean cut between narratively obtained items and the 50BP

I guess – creativity with responsibility is my suggestion.

136

I'll be running 5 years post gauntlet...I have an outline finished and will start fleshing it out and putting it in...much of it (in particular early on) will be lab time without alot of narrative. That's how us labmonkeys roll.

Right off the bat I have some experimenting to do...

How should I go about these rolls?

137

I would basically play it out like we're in play at this point and roll them out yourself. We can all double-check for reasonableness of odd experimental outcomes.

For myself I expect to come in closer to the 10-year mark. That would be because I expect to spend a full year developing two alchemical reagents, another year or two in initiation (minimum of Items of Quality and Verditius Elder Runes), two years on items for craft magic, and before much of that she needs to read some mundane books and get a Longevity Ritual. In the meantime, I've been working on a couple grogs for her to pick for herself. I don't think I can squeeze all that in so well. Anything stronger and most studies of the Arts will have to wait until she reaches the new covenant and play begins.

138

I am a proponent of the narrative approach (after all, I’m the one who first proposed it). However, for that approach to work, there needs to be a shared understanding of what the limits are, be it regarding the setting or the resources available.

So here’s a second attempt at guidelines and principles.

Principles :

  • Explain your thinking! If you make assumptions, or if you are following a plan, let us know. If something doesn’t happen as your character wanted, tell us.
  • Follow the published material. If a sourcebook establishes what tradition are followed by the Tribunal where your character is, don’t go against it.
    • For example, in the Rhine you cannot take an apprentice before you reach the status of Master, and access to Durenmar’s library is tightly controlled. The Greater Alps exports its newly-Gauntleted magi to other Tribunals, nor does it allow new covenants to be formed.
    • If you decide to go against it, do so for a narrative reason BUT also take into account the consequences of going against it. This will usually result in a diminished acces to ressources, but could also be a negative reputation, fines by the Tribunal, etc.
  • Be conservative. Don’t select the best possible outcome for your character. That applies to your access to resources, but also to how seasonal activities happen.
    • If your character’s Ignem score is 8, don’t assume a L10Q21 summa is available at this covenant. Most covenant have a beginner’s book in most Arts, then a few of middle-level books and a handful high-level book. When in doubt, randomize the quality of the resource available.
    • If you want to purchase something with vis (or services), don’t assume it is available right away. It might need to be crafted. If you get it right away, the price is probably higher or the quality lower.
    • In an established covenant, young magi get to do errands for older magi. In a young covenant, they have to deal with all kind of troubles. So whatever plans your character had, have them disturbed by unexpected events which force him/her to do something outside his/her interests.
  • Go slow. Write a season and get comments from the troupe. Then complete the year and get comments. Then proceed one year at a time.

Guidelines :

  • The baseline is about 45 xp, 3 pawns of vis and 1 Warping Point per year.
    • Of course, if you study a lot in your lowest Arts, you’ll use beginner’s summae so you’ll end up with more xp.
    • Lots of studying or lab work should mean less vis and Warping. Conversely, lots of stories should mean more vis and Warping.
  • The quality of books should look like :
    • Beginners’ summae in the Arts range from L5Q15 (an old one but easy to get) to L6Q21 (cutting edge but quite hard to find). Only recently established covenants don’t have them for all the Arts.
    • Mid-level summae range from L9Q15 (lesser ones) to L15Q16 (best of the best). Recently established covenants have a few of those, while older covenants may have them for most Arts (if they weren’t damaged or sold off).
    • High-level summae range from L16Q15 to L20Q11. These are the best books. New covenants only have a few of those. Established covenants reserve those books to their senior magi, trading access for seasons of services (junior magi of the covenant) or vis (visitors).
    • The basic price of a summa is a number of pawns equal to its level. Excellent ones can cost twice that. It may take up to a few years to receive your copy (particularly for the best ones) and it is covered by the Cow and Calf clause.
    • Tractatus range from Q6-8 (worth 1 pawn), Q9-11 (2 pawns), Q12-13 (3 pawns) and Q14 (4 pawns). Young covenants have few tractatus, most of them the less expensive ones. Extra copies available are seldom available for immediate sale, so expect a few seasons of delay if you wish to buy one. Access to the best ones (Q12+) often have strings attached.
  • Trainers have a Training Source Quality of 8 to 10. Teachers have a Teaching Source Quality of 6 to 12, plus the bonus for single-student teaching. Magi charge a very high price for teaching another magus for a season (the equivalent of 4 to 10 pawns of vis). And they might combine that teaching with the season when they teach their own apprentice.
  • Use only standard labs and a +3 aura when doing lab work, no matter where you are.

(I wish it could be simpler and shorter than that.)

2 Likes
139

Works for me. Thanks.

140

Cool I will adjust my 2 years posted with this (though I think it might be diff to reach the approx 45xp in a year), and await any feedback