Actually now I think I will be switching out Personal Vis Source for Leadworker. I think it just really hits more home to his concept and amplifies what he does more!
Isn't Leadworker descended from a style of necromancy, more often part of the Tremere tradition? How would that fit with your more Latin Ex Misc tradition?
(Not objecting per se, just trying to understand your rationale here.)
Culturally/Magically it isn't a unique practice to the Aita Cult. It is described in a very particular way in the Tremere section being how it relates to them especially I think. But the magical mode/methodology of curse tablets and whatnot is found much more widely than that. That style of magic I think is kind of broadly found in hellenic style cursing etc. It is mentioned in Thebes for example and related to Defixio Magic from Ancient Magic describing how it was a feature of both Hellenic and Roman magic. Though there they do imply it is something secret to the Tremere... I just don't see that as accurate. (I've never seen anyone complain about a non-Tremere taking say Harenarius for example.)
I'd posit that then as being strongly related to his general style of magic as a ceremonialist / grand ritual style magic caster, from a Latin/Romanic tradition, whose both personal and tradition emphasis is on doing magic on distant targets at AC range whether via Divination or other means. Curse tablets and such practices just seem like something that is a direct cultural fit if you will.
I'm open to being wrong though I also don't recall any language restricting it in any way, in the Tremere writeup, to being Tremere exclusive. Or really that being the case for any new virtue in any house section that wasn't a mystery. Though I think some people have taken it that way? Regardless I'm open to your views here. I wouldn't take it if I didn't consider it a legitimate choice, but I also don't want to take something that isn't seen as illegitimate by others either!
I agree in general that many of the virtues and flaws found in the House sections are usually available to magi of other Houses. Some, however, seem more strongly related to a single House.
Now, from only the text describing the virtue in HoH:TL, I would be slightly hesitant to allow it for other Houses. The comment in The Sundered Eagle p.122 which you refered to makes me more hesitant, since it states that Leadeworker is a secret of House Tremere.
But it also mentions that non-Hermetic wizards can take it. Thus, since your magus is an Ex Miscellanea, it does makes sense that he would have access to it as part of his tradition.
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An interesting and nuanced view.
So that would make it something to view as more rare then, especially in the order.
Very kind.
Adjudication needed: I posited that Vorsutus received a discounted price Longevity Ritual by the Mercurian High Priest he had been helping. I would like someone else to determine that price, though bearing in mind as a Mercurian I believe they should be able to do it more efficiently, and the discount is an adventure reward from Year 10, Summer. That said ... I don't expect to pay an entirely unrealistic price either!
Why? I don't think a Mercurian has any advantage with longevity rituals (they aren't actually ritual spells).
What about just the 7 pawns (Vorsutus pays for the enchantment itself, but not the fee that the high priest would charge)? I'm not sure of what would be a reasonable CrCo lab total, however, and if it ends up being too high I think it should impact the price.
I think that would be one interpretation but I don't really agree. Longevity Rituals are not, for example, enchantments clearly. They are effects that can fail, after all. Generally I see the exact trappings as being very flexible (rituals with incense vs potions etc. are all possible executions of a Longevity Ritual), but in nature I see them as effectively rituals of a very particular type that cost vis to perform. And have to be designed and executed individually. In past editions it was explicitly stated that the season was to design it (and produce a lab text) and that enacting it later was not as time consuming. To me all of that seems to fit the idea of what Mercurians get their discount on rather well. Though I'm open to different views certainly.
And if it isn't seen that way by the Troupe then that is ok? It just seems reasonable to me.
7 doesn't seem an unreasonable price to me?
I haven't given a lot of deep thought to the lab total, and I don't consider myself an uninterested party here for adjudicating such. They are nominally an elder magus, but I don't really care to dictate what it should be.
In 5ed it's stated they take the season to produce and can be repeated later with the same lab text. But they surely arenāt spells (your lab total isn't halved for the ritual being invented in a season, the ritual isnāt designed to reach a total), and they don't need to be cast.
This is the most recent (and fairly complete) discussion I can find in the forums:
All in all, I'd say they are their own thing? Neither spells, neither rituals, neither enchantments. I donāt recall if we have a previous discussion in this saga about Mercurian Magic being applied or not.
A redcap's longevity ritual is designed by someone with a lab total of at least 50 (giving them a +5 bonus since they donāt have the gift). Not making any point, just listing facts that might help us thinking. Maybe it was also discussed before in the saga, I think there was a player who wanted a LR before (but I might be misremembering).
It's late, I'll sleep and take a look tomorrow.
I've always thought it was a reasonable view, but I can certainly see counter arguments by all means.
7 pawns and assumed lab total of 50 seems fair to me, and we can keep discussing this for the fun of it regardless. 8P
The Tytalus who dwells in my heart salutes the Tytalus who dwells in your heart.
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So I'd like to propose purchasing the following books with the remaining vis. I'll sketch out brief concepts now and write a more in depth description once the overall concept is approved and ratings/ideas are more firm. In general I see most of these as being things he paid to have copied/produced by either Rellantali or other places where members of the Haruspex tradition are located, they being lore from said tradition he wants to have as a foundation for himself.
I'd also like to apply his remaining unallocated adventure reward to being enough vis to cover the difference on these purchases. I'm aiming for roughly a L5 Q (whatever is reasonable) book of each type. I'm not really certain what the prices for non-Art books are expected to be.
Divination Summa: The Celestial Spheres
A work forming the central body of astrological lore passed down by the astrological line in the Haruspex tradition. By one of the first astrologers to have fully converted over to Hermetic Magic during the early founding of the Order of Hermes. Considered the "authority" on astrological divination.
Premonitions Summa: Understanding Foresight
A more recent work by Chaldeaus himself. This tome meticulously categorizes the symbolic associations of various vision elements and their different means of interpretation. The great emphasis on attending to details found in visions and their importance to interpretation later makes this work also able to serve as a tractatus on Awareness.
Second Sight Summa: Seeing Behind The Veil: The Varied Influences of the Realms & Their Interpretation
Another classic by the same author of the Divination authority. This work extensively documents different types of supernatural influences and their appearance to the user of Second Sight. Extensive explanations are provided regarding what may or may not be inferred about the forces of different Realms by what one has observed with the Sight. This also enables these sections of the book to be each read as a tractatus on Realm Lore for each Realm.
Concentration Summa: The Foundations Of Will
A series of exercises of increasing complexity designed to hone mental prowess. (More Pending.)
Art of Memory Summa: On Constructing A Memory Palace
(Pending.)
Classic Greek Language Summa
(Pending.)
I basically see them as "their own thing" as a kind of unique process that is able to be done by all Hermetics but isn't fully integrated and thus isn't just a CrCo guideline. But being their own thing to me doesn't mean that Mercurians wouldn't be more efficient users of vis in casting the effect. And as the inset mentioned in that discussion (TMRE pf 42) makes clear, they are essentially cast akin to rituals using vis. So there are strong arguments as to why they would be analagous/get the benefit.
Most of the arguments I've seen against Mercurians getting the benefit there tend to seem technical and/or gamist to me. "In the spirit" as it were of the Mercurians ... it seems very in keeping with it all.
Nope. It makes clear that the limit on vis is based on the Arts, not MT. This clarification is necessary because repeating the ritual isn't a lab activity.
I see the spirit of the Mercurians as getting several magi to cast a single, powerful ritual spell. Which isn't exactly what a longevity ritual (bath, potion, incense, gem, etc) is.
Humm.... Maybe this is one more discussion to bring to the Table Talk? But I'd suggest the others (familiars and fast-casting) get solved first, to avoid things getting lost in the thread.
It can be tabled for a while. The other two are certainly more important.
Let's make it simple.
Unless the magus create it himself as a lab activity, a longevity ritual designed before the start of the saga costs 1 pawns per magnitude up to the fifth magnitude and 2 pawns per magnitudes 6 to 10, plus the cost of activating the ritual (based on age).
No longevity ritual higher than level 50 during pre-play advancement.
So a level 40 longevity ritual would cost 11 pawns to acquire. If the magus is 36 years old when it is activated, this costs an additional 8 pawns.
The cost of a longevity ritual is not reduced by the Mercurian Magic virtue.
Edit: I've just added it to this post: About the Ars Magica 5th Edition: The Heir of Laimunt Valley category - #3 by Arthur
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Thank you for setting a price. And it looks like this is a general rule for a price and I like that.
Only potential addendum needed would be ... how much is the adventure reward discount worth? Since someone arguably should be able to simply devote time/vis to buying a Longevity Ritual without such an additional factor being involved.
Iāve been thinking about this character a bit more and I think perhaps the Hermetic Flaw āSlow Casterā would be more apt for him and his magic style. Iāve been mulling today about whether to switch over to it and make a few other accompanying changes.
Thoughts on how this would affect/synergize with the concept?
No adventure discount.
Consider that the guideline for yearly vis includes that gained during adventures. That vis is virtual and can manifest itself in different ways -- including a "rebate" on the actual cost (as opposed to the virtual cost) of a longevity ritual.
If I awarded a discount because of an adventures, you'd be getting the benefits twice.
Vis Accrued: 30 pawns
Vis Expenditure In Post Gauntlet:
Longevity Ritual: ?
Bind Familiar: (Lab Total: 35) -7p
Remainder: (Pending)
Other Expenditures:
(Pending)
Adventure Reward x 2 (siege battle & bird problem)
I think these are my lingering issues other than perhaps a Companion and/or Shield Grog or two.
Am I missing anything additional?