Totally fair mate, I’m curious to see what you come up with then!
I'd like to see a revised virtue and flaw spread then to get a better feel of where you are thinking about taking things now with your revisions.
I do think a double Alluring would be ... deceptively strong for your build, but I certainly won't tell you which way to take things.
Ponder this a spell and let me know how you feel about it.
V: Faerie Roads & Trods Regio Network (1), Personal Vis Source (1), Rat Up a Drainpipe (1), Strong Faerie Blood: Goblin (3), Voice of the Town (1), Ways of the Town (3)
F: Faerie Antipathy: Daylight (3), Faerie Heritage (3), Mentor: Goblin Capo (1), Nocturnal (1), Susceptibility to Sunlight (1), Uncertain Faith (1)
Had to search up Rat Up a Drainpipe (I didn't have the time to take a look at the Revised Edition so far).
I like it! I wasn't going to direct you towards that, but any kind of Network would be exceedingly useful to Atheus. That alone is a guaranteed way to link this companion to him. XD
What is the Personal Vis Source for?
I have in mind an agent that can lead you through the roads/trods (and use them himself) as well as generally do nefarious things. The Vis source is so that he can buy magical items/rituals, and advance without that costing Atheus vis every time. Maybe one day he becomes a "real" goblin and then it fuels advancement there as well.
He is intended to be very much a "not very nice" goblin rogue/assassin type guy, but who wants to learn and grow and maybe one day graduate to being a goblin capo/factor, but isn't there yet at all.
Any thoughts on this @RafaelB? I was looking through things and found a few that might be interesting, so I was curious where your head was at.
I am wondering if you are unsure about your revisions/selections? Perhaps we could be of some assistance here? By all means let us know what you are thinking and I'll do my best to try and provide feedback and suggestions.
Hello guys, sorry for the delay. I'm a bit unsure, yeah.
As I said previously, SHB, Persona, Social Contacts and Puissant Intrigue are a no brainer for me, totaling 6 points of Virtue.
For the other 4 points I've come to the conclusion that my previous selection was lacking. Right now I'm toying with things that might increase my lab and/or casting totals and/or decrease the penalties I'll be facing due to casting:
- inside the Dominion
- with no voice or gestures.
Deft Mentem seems like an almost mandatory choice, and I'm strongly inclined to pick it up.
For the remaining 3 points I don't have a strong feeling right now about what to do with them. I could do:
- Mythic Blood, but I'm not sure which theme to go with. Maybe something Corpus related.
- Potent Magic (either major or minor). Again, not sure on the theme. I'm trying to avoid going too deep into the emotions/social relations/mentem area.
- Secondary Insight, to give him some breadth (but would stop me from picking anything major).
- Puissant/Affinity with Mentem are options, but I'm not too keen on them because I personally don't see Atheus as a Mentem magus, but as a generalist one.
- Inventive Genius would help me develop custom spells, and gives me extra incentive to experiment (I like some random chance).
- Life-boost was previously on my list, and it is still a candidate. It might help me boost the casting total if/when needed and it offers some avenue for interesting development if I want to go that route further down the line.
On that: his master is a Leper Magus, and I (still) feel like Atheus becoming a Leper Magus in the future might be an interesting development. Life-boost offers some immediate benefit and it is one of the benefits included in the Leper Magus major virtue, which means it lays down a nice path for him if he needs to be initiated in the future. Coupling it with a mMF on wounds, for example, would fit.
Idk. I'd say I'm currently struggling the most between Secondary Insight, Inventive Genius, Life-boost and a mMF on wounds, with the other things being secondary considerations.
Oh, another bonus of mMF on wounds is to have a healer available, but since Callen is already doing a Mercurian focused on Creo (if I got that right) I don't think that would be much necessary.
This character seems better constructed as an Ex Misc if you want to make use of the Orphean virtues. For example you want Sanguine Humor's Blessing but you would also need Orphic Magic to get full utility out of it. The strength of these concepts I think is tying the character mystically to those who are entwined with them in their "great drama" if you will.
That said if you are determined to do it as a Tytalus (and, hey, I like a good (or a bad one for that matter) Tytalus!), we can take a look at that as well. How about a quick examination of what all of that looks like either way? I might also note that Tytalus is one of easier Houses to join later in life, yes?
One thing occurs to me regarding Orphic Magic and its special Range: The Oath Stone of Inchmore and the creation of Essential Virtues that create Personality Traits. This seems like something that "should" count as something creating/qualifying as "True Feeling" for these purposes. Which ... that just seems rather interesting to even consider.
This doesn't seem like a character that is pursuing a vision of "victory" if you will that looks like ... victorious spell battle if you will. They want to manipulate and be subtle. And you mention wanting lab total help. For that the first thing I'd suggest a magical focus.
How does a Major Magical Focus: Mind Control sound? We could hash out what all would fall into it (and not), but it seems clearly a large segment of Mentem without being all of it. But it would be a lot of what you want to do with this character, and that would help with both spell designs and casting penalties.
For a Minor Magical Focus something like Passions seems like an interesting options honestly. Creating, transmuting, and destroying personality traits seems ... apt. There are already spells that destroy Loyalty traits for example. Exploring specifically that area of magic for someone who has the deeper associations also of the Orpheans just seems like "yes, I'll take some more please" and adding more to your plate.
I like the sound of Inventive Genius! Experimentation can make otherwise unattainable things! (And also go wrong...) It also lends itself to a certain style and flair as a character, am I right?
Here is hoping this is helpful! I look forward to further discussion.
Actually, SHB and OM both build on True Feeling, but they don't need to go hand in hand. Orphic Magic just allows me to affect True Feeling targets at AC range. SHB gives me a bonus on rolls in accordance to the kind of True Feeling I have.
Man, that's indeed an interesting avenue. But instead, my mind went to using these personality traits to summon Airy Spirits of Mentem.
I might be overthinking things regarding casting and lab totals.
After some rework, Atheus will have an initial lab total of around 20~26 depending on the TeFo combination. That's enough for a lot of things if he focuses on inventing low level spells and/or inventing from lab texts. I think I'll indeed pick up Inventive Genius, so this should be further raised to something between 23 and 30 (depending on him experimenting or not).
For casting totals, if he sticks to Mentem the penalty will only be -9. That's fully manageable for him as long as the spell level is not greater than 20. He won't, in general, be casting other forms within the Dominion.
So yeah, while a Focus isn't undesirable, and I'm still considering it, I don't think it's quite necessary.
I'm, however, increasingly convinced that SHB is just not worth it. Take for example Natural Leader which gives +3 bonus to rolls in social situations in which he takes the lead; people are more likely to follow his orders or do as he suggests.
This reads to me as pretty much the same as the "+3 bonus to impress or persuade" given by SHB, even if not quite the same thing? Compare also with Venus' Blessing, that gives +3 on Com and Pre rolls with sexually compatible characters in appropriate situations.
SHB also has the benefit of +5 to casting spells with the purpose of impress or persuade, but that is not worth the jump from Minor to Major, IMO.
Mechanically it is sub-par. The idea of a mage that is interested and tied to things like passions and whatnot is interesting but as the focal ability/unique magic of an Ex Misc tradition it strikes me as lacking.
I think you can do things that are thematically similar with those same three points but will benefit your build considerably more.
This would be very interesting and potentially quite powerful. Imagine using Hermetic Theurgy to summon a Mentem Egregore Daimon based around the sharing/spreading of an intrinsic major personality trait that it has sympathy to/feeds on.
So, let me stress a bit what I'm envisioning for the character.
I understand that even if I negate the -3 penalty, by not negating the deleterious effect of the Gift the long term effects of the interaction will still exist. On the best scenario the other character will believe he was swindled. On the worst one, he will believe he was subjected to nefarious magic.
As I envision, this is Atheus' core struggle, the one that gives him meaning as a Tytalus. Can he win against the Gift? Can he marry his True Love openly, without eloping? How far can he exert influence upon mundanes, despite the Gift, with only limited and judicious use of Mentem?
For that reason, I'm still leaning towards NOT taking the Gentle Gift. I wonder if we can work the +3 in rolls to impress or persuade into a suitable Minor Virtue, or if there is one existing virtue that seems equally applicable.
If there isn't, well... in that case I'll probably keep SHB and just deal with the consequences (it's what a Tytalus would do, after all).
I will have to ponder and research a bit when I have time. But my instincts are that there are probably few options for broad social benefits.
I could see some sort of other minor virtue akin to Venus' Blessing if you wanted to take that and reskin it as some sort of negotiation/persuasion version. Or any combination thereof.
Here are what additional things I've found with a few minutes of looking.
Inspirational
Natural Leader
Piercing Gaze
Puissant: Ability
Ways of the (Land): Town
Ways of the Town affects humans, so that is a flat +3 bonus that applies to socials and to combat both, among other things. If you mixed in some (or all) of the others you would come out still penalized by the Gift but highly (unusually) socially competent despite the fact.
All things considered for a Magus these are all relatively small bonuses. Hardly game breaking compared to even mid-grade Mentem magic possibilities. So I'm not deeply concerned about game balance here (for that reason) but also want to make sure you feel you are getting something of value for your finite virtue points.
Thoughts?
On the social benefits field there's also Alluring to (Beings) and, perhaps, Clear Thinker.
Aptitude for (Sin), which could actually be broader than social, eg. if the sin is adultery I'd expect the bonus to be applied not only to Charm rolls to seduce other woman and Guile rolls to lie to your wife, but also to Stealth rolls to go to and from the place of the sin... but not, for example, to Leadership rolls to coerce a witness into silence.
I did think about Ways of the Town, but I think it restricts Atheus operation more then I want to. Eg. it wouldn't apply at Inchmore (or any covenant outside a town/city), nor at the Tribunal. It wouldn't apply while talking to a merchant on the road between Athlone and Dublin. And a bunch of other different corner cases.
If you are willing to let me have something like:
Silver Tongue
General, Minor
You get +3 on Communication and Presence rolls to impress or persuade.
I'd be glad.
It mirrors the wording of Venus' Blessing and Alluring while being a bit more restrictive than what is technically covered by SHB (eg. it leaves out using a Sta+Carouse roll to impress someone by being a good drinker).
I’m not particularly opposed to it, as in general I’m in favor of trying to make things work. @Vortigern? I suspect you’ll feel the same, but I wanted to check.
I think this really depends upon interpretation of the virtue.
This doesn't say anything about needing to be in the terrain type to receive the bonus instead it says (emphasis mine) "You get a +3 bonus to all rolls, including combat and Casting Scores, that directly involve that area and its inhabitants; mundane, magical, or faerie." Your area of knowledge thus includes the terrain type and the creatures associated with it, and interacting with either means you get the bonus.
An example in a different context might be illustrative. Imagine an archer with "Ways of the Sky" who is in a forest but shooting his bow at a bird of some sort. The bird is a creature of the sky, and thus falls under the expertise of the Ways virtue whether the archer is literally in the sky or not.
Anyway, we could dig into that one rather more but I think that would be a lot of wasted effort because I think I found something superior for your purposes. Specifically I think Essential Virtues are just the thing.
So you could take this at either Minor or Major and get either a +3 or +6 bonus to anything deemed to fall under (to use your example) the definition/category of "Silver-Tongued" associated with say the Communication attribute. I think that a suitable Essential Virtue (or set of them besides) does exactly what you want with no house rules required.
Let us take a look at what this looks like with an example Tytalus virtue spread. Just a quick example of course, but it has potential worth exploring.
This would give you a +6 to general social persuasion rolls with Communication, but also another +2 to Intrigue from Puissant. On top of that a +3 to anything "scheming" related with Intelligence, and again the +2 to Intrigue with Puissant there. Throw on some Confidence and sprinkle some Social Contacts (you need a category assigned there) and you have a lot of social power to point in any direction. And a Major Focus to boot! Or you could go Minor Focus, have room for Deft Art: Mentem, and another point somewhere.
Thoughts?
Ok. I think I have him nailed down (finally).
Regarding Essential Virtue, I'd rather stay away from it... for no particular reason, to be honest. I just never liked the virtue very much. But I do think it helped me see some additional value on SHB. The way SHB is written I could get roughly the same effect by purchasing Essential Virtue (+1) Siver Tongue for Com, Pre and Sta (treating spellcasting as Stamina rolls). With the caveat that I can't really do that because Essential Virtue forbids one from picking the same Essential Trait.
So I think I'll keep SHB in the end.
With that, my final V&F spread is the following:
Virtues:
- Sanguine Humor’s Blessing (+3)
- Persona (+1)
- Social Contacts (Merchants) (+1)
- Puissant Intrigue (+1)
- Deft Mentem (+1)
- Inventive Genius (+1)
- Secondary Insight (+1)
- Good Teacher (+1)
The differences from two years ago are that Quiet Casting, Life Boost and Well Traveled were changed for Deft Mentem, Secondary Insight and Good Teacher.
Deft Mentem works better for the concept, Secondary Insight gives a little oomph for his Arts without focusing too much on one thing and Good Teacher is just something I want to explore a bit, and now is as good of a chance as any other.
The Flaws balancing that are:
- True Love (-3)
- Deficient Technique: Perdo (-3)
- Proud (-1)
- Avaricious (-1)
- Clumsy Magic (-1)
- Weak Parens (-1)
The only difference from the previous spread is that I changed Unimaginative Learner for Clumsy Magic.
I switched his Arts and Abilities around a bit, if you give me the OK for the above I'll post the updated stats regarding those.