Combat spells are restricited to level 50; higher levels are Rituals. There comes a point where affecting a target with a certain effect therefore becomes impossible due to size. For example, killing a giant could be done with a level 50 PeCo spell [Base 30 + 2 voice + 2 size], but this could only affect a giant of up to Size +7 (1 base Indiviudal, +2 x 3 from extra magnitudes).
How do you combat a larger giant? Obviously you could settle for lower base effects, but even that kinda runs out eventually.
I suggest you could use a Part target instead, with perhaps +25 damage at base 30. So the most powerful combat spell would be PeCo level 50 [Base 30 +1 part + 2 voice + 1 extra-effect] doing, I don't know - maybe +30 damage ? Let's say 35 damage on average. That is enough to kill a Size +3 giant [lethal wounds 21 + 4 x 3 = 33], to inflict incapacitating wonds on a Size +6 giant [incapacitating wounds 16 + 3 x 6 = 34], heavy wounds on a Size +12 giant [heavy wounds 11 + 2 x 12 = 35], and medium wounds on a Size +29 giant [medium wounds 6 + 1 x 29 = 33].
Or, you know, just use other Tech+Form combos to deal damage. After all, a CrAu spell creating lightning doesn't need to care about the target’s Size, and you might get better penetration, since it’s lower level.
Except Perdo Corpus has NO guidelines for causing damage. What it does have is causing wounds directly, and the guideline says it’s Ind, so you’ll need Size modifiers to affect them. Yes, you can MuCo a Part, or ReCo a Part, depending on the guideline, but I wouldn’t allow a PeCo on Part for wounds, unless it’s a special case, say a hydra-like creature that if you cut one part, two grow, so you do PeCo part to prevent it from regrowing.
Yep. I feel like this question is like saying “my opponent has a major immunity to fire, how do I burn him?”. You don't, do something else instead.
Saying the level 50 limit stops some things is why it's there: those things are too hard.
I disagree. Magi should be able to use workarounds to work with their best form, especially if it thematic, and they have put in time and effort. Yes, the easiest thing is to have the multicast incantations of lightning.
If someone likes the thematics of crushing a Giant’s heart, chooses to spend what is likely multiple seasons to design the level 45 Clenching Grasp of the Crushed Heart, target part, why say no? A giant probably has magic resistance, so good luck with the spell working anyway.
Yeah, if that's what you want to do go right ahead. But your level 45 spell isn't breaking any limits.
I'm all for using Arts flexibly, especially when you have a few really good ones, but there are limits. Using Animal to destroy a tree is a lot harder than using Herbam. (I'm not saying impossible, but conjuring a swarm of obedient beavers is going to be higher level.)
You can use your best Form, if that’s what you want, but in the case you’ve outlined in the beginning of this thread, you used the guideline incorrectly.
If you want to find creative ways to use your Form, nobody here is gonna stop you, if it’s creative, AND uses the guidelines correctly.
But there’s also the matter of simply not always being able to use your best Form. There are things your best Form might not be able to do, and that’s perfectly fine. It’s why Magi learn all Forms to one degree or another (That, and not wanting to produce apprentices with 2+ Deficient Form/Technique)
One amusing take on 'Giant terrorizing the countryside' is just shrink the giant down to normal-human size; then set them up as a freeholder. Now they have neighbors, and peer pressure, and no problem getting enough food. Suddenly the poor giant has a multitude of unanticipated slice-of-life scale problems.
It seems like a fun story; sorry for not staying on-topic.
How is choosing part as the target against the guidelines? Perdo Corpus. Destroy body. Heart is a body part. I will accept one can argue the magi cannot see the heart, thus cannot target it. The magi can change the death mechanism to an exploding head like in the movie Scanners; a decapitation, there are lots of choices. The head and neck are visible targets.
A part target kill spell to get around the problem of big creatures seems valid. The player is needing 5 more levels. 5 levels when it’s 45 instead of 40 is a big difference. A lot more than level 20 vs 15. It seems a reasonably balanced approach to the problem. I don’t see this as gaming the rules.
Twist of the tongue uses the guideline to cripple a limb, which heals as a medium wound. This is distinct from actually inflicting a medium wound. It uses Part, presumably because it affects the tongue, rather than an arm or leg. This has none of the effects of a medium wound, but renders the limb, in this case the tongue, useless.
As for destroying part of a body, no, the spell Clenching Grasp of the Crushed Heart specifically instantly kills the target, and does not use Part. You cannot use Part to trivialize size modifiers in this way. You are free to use Creo Corpus to make weapons of human parts, or Rego Corpus on what’s around, but Perdo Corpus needs sufficient size modifiers to affect the target
You may feel that way, but you haven’t given a factual reason why Base 15: Inflict a Heavy Wound cannot be used with T:Part. You’d have to build a case on why a Heavy Wound on a limb doesn’t translate into a Heavy Wound on the individual, but I don’t think you’ll find any rule covering that point.
You could rely on troupe intervention through the Central Rule, but this is outside the scope of what is possible.
Oh, and Clenching Grasp of the Crushed Heart is just a fancy name. It doesn’t target the heart.
Ultimately, destroying a Part of the target squarely falls under Perdo and if it's not in the guidelines this just means that it's up to troupe to decide on the appropriate base level and consequences.
I'd argue even Base 20 seems reasonable. "Destroy or sever a limb, so that it cannot heal naturally."
Show me a single spell that actually uses these guidelines, whether from Perdo Corpus or Perdo Animal, and I will concede. Even the spells we do have say that you need to use Size modifiers to affect larger than base size creatures of the type. If you could just slap Part on it, and be done, I’d imagine we’d get a note or spell to that effect.
This, to me, feels like just a cheap way to get around the rules.
Regarding size and gettting around it. The Rego Herbam spell Strike of the Angry Branch uses part, to get around the problem of the tree being big, so while not Perdo, the issue you are concerned about, has been implemented in a core rulebook spell.
