Fighting very large opponents

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

I don't think target Part can be used to get an effect that affects the whole. Strike of the Angry Branch passes that test: while the branch is striking, the rest of the tree can do anything else trees do (normally not much).

But Part is a weird target anyway, often put in to balance a spell. Twist of the Tongue implies a spell one magnitude lower that twists an entire body, and all things in it that are twistable…. really?

And I think a +7 Size giant has a +7 Size heart, don't they? Or do people think Twist of the Tongue works on any giant whose tongue is less than 8’ long?

22

And while my magi’s Summon the Headsman’s Axe spell is decapitating the giant, the rest of his body can do anything a body normally does.

No. Otherwise any part spell fails. Strike of the angry branch, the branch is a +7 size branch if it’s part of a +7 size Elm, by that thinking. Anyone affecting a part of a mountain would need probably 5+ extra magnitudes. The spell rules as written would allow part to get around a really large creature.

23

A few comments:

  1. Because it’s not Perdo wound causing spell, it’s not the correct example to use to make your point.
  2. While a branch of a tree might not need the +5 Size modifier of the tree, if you use it as is, you’ll only be able to affect a small branch, since the spell doesn’t have any Size modifier, and a Target Part spell can only affect up to the size of an Individual of that Form.
  3. If you wanted to stop the heart of a +7 SIze Giant, your spell would probably need a +2-3 Size modifier to account for the giant’s heart being bigger than a Corpus individual. It would be a far cry from a +7 Size modifer, but without any Size modifiers, I wouldn’t allow the spell to affect the giant, since it cna’t affect the heart.
24

Nah. A Size 0 human has a heart of about 0.6 lbs. Assuming giants have human proportions, the heart of a Size +7 humanoid giant would average around 120 lbs. The base Individual for Corpus is a person of up to Size +1, which is up to 465 lbs. (DE p.427). You'd only need an extra magnitude for size for the heart of a Size +9 or larger giant, and with three points of Size equaling a factor of ten, you wouldn't need a second spell magnitude for size until you reach a Size +12 giant.

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25

Good reason for a troupe to reject it. That’s getting close to factual.

If you allow wounds on limb and not the whole, it implies applying the penalty only when using said limb. That would become hard to track and uninteresting.

OTOH, as soon as you cripple a giant he become more or less incapacitated (compare to Hobbled or Missing Hand). So cripple or wound have the same end result.

That would be a nice one for @callen, I wonder if he would consider it undecided or lean one way.

26

I think you're interpreting Size as equivalent to mass, and I’m not convinced it is. It's an interpretation, but I don't think it's the only one, and I think it has weird consequences.

( For what it's worth, I'm still thinking this one over, and I’m not sure where I’ll end up.)

27

Well, I mean, that sure reads to me to be what the game text says.

Definitive Edition, p.26:

Every three points of Size represents a ten-fold increase or decrease in mass, and adult humans can range from Size -2 to Size +2, if they take appropriate Virtues or Flaws.

Definitive Edition, p.427:

Each Size category is approximately twice as heavy as the previous size category. A 1-point difference in Size doubles the weight, 2 points multiplies it by five, and a 3-point increase in Size entails a ten-fold increase in mass.

And the p.427 table's four headings are "Size", "Height", "Weight", and "Example".

Now, there's more text on p.427 about birds being bigger than their weight would result in, which suggests weight is implicitly being used as a proxy for volume, since when density is approximately equal, the ratio of weights will give you the approximate ratio of volumes.

If we do treat Size as a matter of a single linear dimension ("height") instead of mass or volume, well, hearts, shape-wise, tend to more closely approximate a sphere in shape than the human body does. The result is that the "height" of a heart that weighs 120 lbs.is going to be shorter than a human who weighs 120 lbs.(assuming, again, approximately similar density).

To calculate instead of approximate, the change in linear dimension per increase in Size is about ×1.3. 1.3 to the 7th power is a bit under 6.3. A quick Googling says a typical human heart's longest dimension is about 12 cm. If a Size +7 giant's heart is 6.3 times larger in linear dimensions than a Size 0 human's heart, that works out to about 75 centimeters in "height", or 2.5 feet/30 inches, which looking up on the table is Size -3. That's a lot shorter than a 120 lbs.. human, isn't it?

To calculate alternatively? Since Size is multiplicative, the Size table is a logarithmic table (to its own particular bases, one for height and another for weight), and you can add on log tables to multiply. So we can look up a human heart's Size on the table and add seven, and, assuming the giant has the same proportions as a human get the Size of the heart of a Size +7 giant.

Well, by weight, 0.6 pounds is Size -7 by the table, and adding 7 to -7 is Size 0 -- and the calculated 120 lbs. is in Size 0's 100-215 lbs. range. At the same time, 12 cm is about 4.7 inches, which is Size -10. Adding 7 to that, we get Size -3 -- and the calculated 2.5 feet/30 inches is in Size -3's 21-32" height range.

All in all, it seems pretty clear to me that a Size +7 giant's heart is going to be smaller than a base Individual of Corpus (up to 8 feet in height, or 465 lbs. in weight), unless the giant's heart:body ratio is radically disproportionate to the adult human human heart:body ratio.

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28

Arm of the infant a Muto Corpus specifically affects part of a body. If part of a body can be mutated, why can’t it be destroyed?

While I appreciate nearly all T:part spells in the core rulebook are to affect part of a body of water, or an amount of earth or air, affecting a part of a body of flesh holds with hermetic theory. I think they avoided a decapitation spell being target part, as it would confuse beginning players, when it could be individual and 5 level lower. Explaining the nuances of why choosing part is sometimes valid, is more for the seasoned gamers.

29

It can be: there are specific Guidelines for that. PeCo 15: Cripple a limb & PeCo 20: Destroy or sever a limb. The spell Twist of the Tongue even uses T: Part. But it doesn’t use an “Inflict X Wound” Guideline.

30

Agreed. The guideline kill a person (level 30) seems the one to use for a decapitation spell. The level 20 destroy or severe a limb, is looking for a crippling attack not a deadly attack, however it clearly shows hermetic magic can slice a part of a body from the whole.

Arguably slicing off a leg around the pelvis would be harder that a decapitation, however spells do have a degree of game balance aspects, so I would think the easier neck slice would still be level 30 base.

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31

Perhaps a bit late to the discussion, but I believe you shouldn’t be able to use T:Part to get around size for kill spells. I lump it in to the same reason you can’t use ReCo Part to kill.

Break the Cheating Spine (Perdo Corpus 25)

Teleports the target’s neck 5 paces upwards. This does not kill the target; Dying is a natural effect afterwards, and totally isn’t your fault.

(Base 10, +2 voice, +1 Part)

Game balance and game mechanics are a big part of it, and its up to us as Storyguides and Game System Philosophers to figure out a reason as to why.

There’s more than a few times I’ve had rules judgements that got the explanation “Yeah, Hermetic Theory says that should work, but it doesn’t. There’s clearly something you’re missing. You could try Original Research.” I’m looking at you, Target:Circle Stamina Boost.

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32

I am now inspired to have a gigantic bipedal fire-spewing lizard with spatulate ridges come lumbering out of the Atlantic, to show that nature points out the folly of men.

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33

(Going back up a little) I agree that Siz for individuals is some mix of volume and mass, but I was playing with the idea that Parts of individuals shared the Siz of the whole. But that really doesn't work, my mistake! You can defend the idea that Strike of the Angered Branch might not work for a big enough tree, but spells such as Earth That Breaks No More works on Part of all the earth of Europe, which clearly has too much Siz to be affected.

I still wouldn't allow a kill spell done via Target Part, because the effect is too big, and not intended by the designers (in my opinion, of course!).

But I also don't want a Part version of Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand to work on giants of any size, and I’m on weak ground there, I realise. I could only justify it by having different rules for different Forms, which isn't nice.

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34

The ruling I’ve always gone by - if the spell’s BASE targets a part, you shouldn’t target a part.
If targeting the part would over-proportionally affect the whole, you can’t target the part.

You can’t kill-spell targeting ‘part’ to get a giant’s head or heart. Same with wounds. You can’t teleport part of someone to damage them without Perdo.

You can turn someone’s skin into ashes without the rest of them (sounds painful), you can ‘destroy’ part of something that doesn’t have wound levels.

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35

Hm. It does seem that Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand using the “Make a target lose control of a body part” Guideline and Twist of the Tongue using “Cripple a limb, making it unusable” should have the same Target. But the former is Individual whereas the latter is Part.

36

Yeah. I think this conversation is pushing at the rules harder than the designers did. (No offence to any designers reading, of course.)

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37

“You’re going to need a bigger giant.”

38

Exactly. I have been talking about a spell going from level 40 to level 45. Those 5 levels are tough. And it is a spell custom made to get around size. The flexible formulaic guy can not adjust Clenching grasp of the crushed heart to target part, because the heart is not a valid target. The heart not being a valid part target, is why I’ve kept talking about decapitation.

Saying the magi who has level 60 perdo corpus lab total, spending 3 season to make a level 45 decapitation spell is gaming the system, seems harsh.

I think we all agree the outcome matters, which is why any Rego spell that drags a spine from the brain stem etc, is actually Perdo and judged as a kill spell. Same with Muto spell that turn the head to sand or water with no rules about it keeping cohesion. Nope, that is a Perdo kill spell with cosmetic effects.

39

First, you can always first shrink said giant with MuCo :slight_smile:
Base 3, R:Voice, D:Diam means Level 10, so you can get up to size 1+(40/5)x3=25 that way. Of course, once your 1000-pace tall giant is the size of your little finger, there's relatively little reason to PeCo him rather than just stomp onto him.

Second, you can try to quickly draw a Circle around him; sure, you run the risk of botching if the Circle is really large, but you certainly pay no extra magnitures for size - as a bonus, you get to PeCo as many giants as you can fit!

40

Circle Targets are pretty terrible for offensive combat spells, since they take several round to draw if you aren’t within a meter and a half of what you’re trying to affect (in this case, in kicking range), causes a botch if the circle is broken before the casting is complete, and require constant concentration checks if you try to make a larger circle. A circle 10 meters in diameter already takes four combat rounds.