General Table Talk

[Marko_Markoko]

It is freaking cold in Chicago! 6 degrees Farenhieght. Don't know what that is in Celsius. It's like three magnitudes below freezing, so around -15C.
:envy:

[Marko_Markoko]

@Arawn

Ok, there is something much bigger which needs to be hashed out post haste. I reread "Aegis of the Hearth". I've been confused by the "Level 35 lockdown" to which you're referring. To my knowledge, a place can have only ONE "Aegis" on it. Unless the core members of the Covenant took the nearly two hours to create a new Aegis after the explosion (which they'd still be doing when Vares arrived) the original is still in effect. In previous editions they could have used a ReVi35 effect to simulate it as a Charm Against Magic, but that's nearly "impossible" according to the stupid 5th Ed. revisionism.

You misunderstood me. 7th Magnitude Lockdown is a figure of speech. The Security Protocols of Andorra are divided into ten different "Magnitudes" of alert. It has nothing to do with the level of the Aegis (our is level 60 BTW, 12th magnitude). It's like the bizarre alert levels for US Homeland Security, and they make just about as much sense. (For those of you from outside the US, the stupid department of Homeland Security invented this BS alert system, instead of using the normal custom of Green/Yellow/Red alert, they added more colors to create in-between levels; like Orange, Purple, Blue, and etceteras).
We usually idle at the 2nd security magnitude of Alert; guards posted, watch details, patrols of the area, minor security enchantments, etceteras. The 5th Magnitude is Heightened Security; extra men on watch and increased patrols, magi on alert, spells to be cast, etceteras. The 7th magnitude is Lockdown; gates closes, all troops on duty or on standby, double the men on watch and disbursement of special equipment, specialized units on recon/patrol, all aegis tokens withdrawn, all magi on duty, etceteras.

@Arawn

Second, are you saying that none of the Magi who were up for membership participated in the Aegis ritual? What about the members of the Covenant who aren't Magi? They usually do, or else it impedes them, too.

This is correct. Only member magi participate in the aegis. As you were not members yet, you were not permitted. Non-magi simply cannot participate because they cannot cast spells at all. Those that need one are given tokens, such as the one grog with Second Sight (who is not Moe, it has been changed to a different grog who is weaker and less important (long story)).

@Arawn

Third, and this is very, very important: according to the RAW text it is impossible to rescind the invittations of unknown parties. No blanket revocation can be done. Each person given an invitation must be revoked BY NAME. In other words, the core Magi would have had to choose to rescind the invitations given to the others, including those who are new members! If any who participated in the ritual extended invitations unknown to the others, those invitations would still be valid.

There is a flaw in your logic. It doesn’t matter if someone is given a secret second token. I still know they were invited in the first place, and thus I could still expel them. It isn’t about revoking the token. It is expelling a specific known individual that I know has been invited in. If they are re-invited and I do not know it, I cannot expel them (that is, not until I figure out that they have been re-invited).

@Arawn

This strikes me as a near-fatal flaw in the spell. All it takes is one corrupted or befuddled member of the Covenant to be suborned by an outside power to give out invitations allowing them into the Aegis and then have their memories wiped to prevent anyone from finding out that the Aegis is now vulnerable to an untold number of agencies. Infernal Corruption would be almost unstoppable as they trick Covenant after Covenant into letting them in and prevent anyone from remembering that it happened until it is much, much too late.

You are correct sir. Otherwise the spell would be called “Immunity to the Supernatural”.
There are other loopholes too, especially concerning enchanted items and supernatural beings.
Items are resisted unless they were a) made in the aegis by a participant in the ritual or by someone who holds a token, or b) was in the aegis at the time of casting. An item with a curse or other baneful effect, left secretly inside the area of the aegis, has full effect and penetration the next year when the aegis is cast. An item you bring in from the outside is resisted by the aegis until the next year, and items you make and leave outside for a year and resisted by the new aegis when you bring them back in. An Item made by a wizard with an invitation is resisted until the next year. If that wizard was inside the aegis when recast, and later that year his invitation is revoked, all of his items still have full effect and penetration.
For supernatural beings; if they are brought inside and then have their invitation revoked, or if they can get in because their Might exceeds the Aegis ( ), then they can still use all of their powers as normal. The only penalty is that their Penetration totals are halved, regardless of how low or high the level of the aegis may be. And for some powers Penetration doesn’t necessarily matter; such as illusions or personal powers.

[ladyphoenix]

Just because there is going to be a lot of debate: I would like to know where in the rules does it say that concentration adds to your spontaneous spell casting total. Casting ceremonially adds your philosophy and artes Liberales to the total (p83) .

In addition, all magic is much too general a specialty for concentration. Concentration on spells (to keep them going) is a good specialty that perhaps can be broadened for when casting as well but that would only be hermetic spell, not all magic.

Admittedly, getting back fatigue is generally easy if you have 2 minutes or 10 to rest between castings.

[Marko_Markoko]

@ladyphoenix

Just because there is going to be a lot of debate: I would like to know where in the rules does it say that concentration adds to your spontaneous spell casting total. Casting ceremonially adds your philosophy and artes Liberales to the total (p83) .

In addition, all magic is much too general a specialty for concentration. Concentration on spells (to keep them going) is a good specialty that perhaps can be broadened for when casting as well but that would only be hermetic spell, not all magic.

Admittedly, getting back fatigue is generally easy if you have 2 minutes or 10 to rest between castings.

Good point. Nowhere does it alow you to add Concentration to spellcasti ng. I had thought I mentioned that, but I must of forgotten to. As it was a spontaneous spell, Vares could have cast Cerimonially to add Artes Liberales & Philosophiae.

I see LadyP's point cpncerning specialization. I suppose saying "spells" is more appropriate (as opposed to "items" or "powers"). Having said that, I am not opposed to simply saying "magic", since spell concentration would still be the way it is applied.

Vares will recieve all his fatigue back once the emergency council session is conviened. He did not declare he was resting between spells, and I had to do the math and roll the die for him.

[MTKnife]

@Marko Markoko

@Arawn

Second, are you saying that none of the Magi who were up for membership participated in the Aegis ritual? What about the members of the Covenant who aren't Magi? They usually do, or else it impedes them, too.

This is correct. Only member magi participate in the aegis. As you were not members yet, you were not permitted. Non-magi simply cannot participate because they cannot cast spells at all. Those that need one are given tokens, such as the one grog with Second Sight (who is not Moe, it has been changed to a different grog who is weaker and less important (long story)).

Only one magus actually casts the spell. As for "participation" or "involvement" in the ritual, the text does refer only to magi, including non-Hermetic magi, which might be taken to imply that participation is only possible by magi, but I would suggest that the text refers only to magi because it's only relevant for them. Second Sight in particular wouldn't require either participation or a casting token, because it doesn't have a Casting Total.

Scott

[Marko_Markoko]

@MTKnife

@Marko Markoko

@Arawn

Second, are you saying that none of the Magi who were up for membership participated in the Aegis ritual? What about the members of the Covenant who aren't Magi? They usually do, or else it impedes them, too.

This is correct. Only member magi participate in the aegis. As you were not members yet, you were not permitted. Non-magi simply cannot participate because they cannot cast spells at all. Those that need one are given tokens, such as the one grog with Second Sight (who is not Moe, it has been changed to a different grog who is weaker and less important (long story)).

Only one magus actually casts the spell. As for "participation" or "involvement" in the ritual, the text does refer only to magi, including non-Hermetic magi, which might be taken to imply that participation is only possible by magi, but I would suggest that the text refers only to magi because it's only relevant for them. Second Sight in particular wouldn't require either participation or a casting token, because it doesn't have a Casting Total.

Scott

Second Sight does have a casting total; the roll of a SD + Perception + ability score in Second Sight.
As for participants, you are correct in stating that there is only one (main) caster. I had always presumed that "participants" refered to others who aid casting via "Wizard's Communion.

[MTKnife]

@Marko Markoko

@MTKnife

@Marko Markoko

@Arawn

Second, are you saying that none of the Magi who were up for membership participated in the Aegis ritual? What about the members of the Covenant who aren't Magi? They usually do, or else it impedes them, too.

This is correct. Only member magi participate in the aegis. As you were not members yet, you were not permitted. Non-magi simply cannot participate because they cannot cast spells at all. Those that need one are given tokens, such as the one grog with Second Sight (who is not Moe, it has been changed to a different grog who is weaker and less important (long story)).

Only one magus actually casts the spell. As for "participation" or "involvement" in the ritual, the text does refer only to magi, including non-Hermetic magi, which might be taken to imply that participation is only possible by magi, but I would suggest that the text refers only to magi because it's only relevant for them. Second Sight in particular wouldn't require either participation or a casting token, because it doesn't have a Casting Total.

Scott

Second Sight does have a casting total; the roll of a SD + Perception + ability score in Second Sight.
As for participants, you are correct in stating that there is only one (main) caster. I had always presumed that "participants" refered to others who aid casting via "Wizard's Communion.

That's an Ability roll, not a Casting Total. But in any case, yes, the Wizard's Communion clearly isn't necessary--and I don't want even to think about the botch possibilities of a yearly Wizard's Communion with the whole covenant involved.

Scott

[Marko_Markoko]

@MTKnife

That's an Ability roll, not a Casting Total. But in any case, yes, the Wizard's Communion clearly isn't necessary--and I don't want even to think about the botch possibilities of a yearly Wizard's Communion with the whole covenant involved.
Scott

Ah, true! The spell says nothing about rolls for Supernatural Ailities. Used from the outside, they would be resisted as the Aegis "protects a covenant like Parma Magica does a magus" and all. But inside the Aegis, there is no specifically mentioned penalty.

As for casting the Aegis using Wizard's Communion, that actually is what we are doing. And from a Casting Tablet too . The same thing is occuring at many-many covenants throughout the order, each and every year.
It is only a matter of time...

[MTKnife]

@Marko Markoko

@MTKnife

That's an Ability roll, not a Casting Total. But in any case, yes, the Wizard's Communion clearly isn't necessary--and I don't want even to think about the botch possibilities of a yearly Wizard's Communion with the whole covenant involved.
Scott

Ah, true! The spell says nothing about rolls for Supernatural Ailities. Used from the outside, they would be resisted as the Aegis "protects a covenant like Parma Magica does a magus" and all. But inside the Aegis, there is no specifically mentioned penalty.

Did the rules ever clarify how Magic Resistance interacts with Supernatural Abilities?

Scott

[Marko_Markoko]

The total of SD + Characteristic + Ability needs to exceed the magic resistance as normal. This is not as difficult as it may seem. For example, with things such as Entrancement, there is no "level" to subtract from the total. For Shapeshifter, it has been mentioned elsewhere that the magic affects the user only while changing from one form to another, so they are not blocked from clawing you.

[MTKnife]

@Marko Markoko

The total of SD + Characteristic + Ability needs to exceed the magic resistance as normal. This is not as difficult as it may seem. For example, with things such as Entrancement, there is no "level" to subtract from the total. For Shapeshifter, it has been mentioned elsewhere that the magic affects the user only while changing from one form to another, so they are not blocked from clawing you.

Does Second Sight need to penetrate?

Scott

[Arawn]

@Marko Markoko

@ladyphoenix

Just because there is going to be a lot of debate: I would like to know where in the rules does it say that concentration adds to your spontaneous spell casting total. Casting ceremonially adds your philosophy and artes Liberales to the total (p83) .

In addition, all magic is much too general a specialty for concentration. Concentration on spells (to keep them going) is a good specialty that perhaps can be broadened for when casting as well but that would only be hermetic spell, not all magic.

Admittedly, getting back fatigue is generally easy if you have 2 minutes or 10 to rest between castings.

Good point. Nowhere does it alow you to add Concentration to spellcasti ng. I had thought I mentioned that, but I must of forgotten to. As it was a spontaneous spell, Vares could have cast Cerimonially to add Artes Liberales & Philosophiae.

I see LadyP's point cpncerning specialization. I suppose saying "spells" is more appropriate (as opposed to "items" or "powers"). Having said that, I am not opposed to simply saying "magic", since spell concentration would still be the way it is applied.

Vares will recieve all his fatigue back once the emergency council session is conviened. He did not declare he was resting between spells, and I had to do the math and roll the die for him.

I will have to get the specific page numbers. Taking extra Care is an option present in 3rd and 4th Ed. that it looks like the mass revisionists excised from 5th Ed. along with countless other long-time staples of the game. Ceremonial Casting is really an adaptation of the methods used by the Natural Magicians from 4th Ed. who used Abilities (then, Knowledges) such as Philosophiae in creating their effects. With the amount of time that Ceremonial Casting requires it doesn't offer much benefit to most Spontaneous magic. Taking extra Care with a Spontaneous spell was one minute per magnitude, and five minutes per magnitude (I believe) with Formulaic and Ritual spells. It also reduced the botch dice (if any) by one.

Concentration is applicable to completely different tasks that have no relationship to magic. It is, however, one of those Abilities in which virtually every Magus or Maga should be trained.

[Marko_Markoko]

@MTKnife

Does Second Sight need to penetrate?

Scott

I don't think so. It depends on how it is used I guess. It detects species after they leave the subject with magic resistance. And regios don't normally have magic resistance. I can think of exceptions though, like a regio that has it's exact boundary traced out by an Aegis of the Hearth for example.

[MTKnife]

@Marko Markoko

@MTKnife

Does Second Sight need to penetrate?

Scott

I don't think so. It depends on how it is used I guess. It detects species after they leave the subject with magic resistance. And regios don't normally have magic resistance. I can think of exceptions though, like a regio that has it's exact boundary traced out by an Aegis of the Hearth for example.

I'm not sure it's using species, though--um, I guess that depends on what species are.

Scott

[Marko_Markoko]

My New Years Resolution is to try to keep rules talk over here in Table Talk.

@Arawn

OOC: Oh...bother. Yes, I have been relying on Int as part of Spontaneous casting, as it was always the relevant attribute. The concept was that intellect allowed one to devise spells on the fly, whereas stamina was involved in the performance of rote magic that didn't require fast-thinking to get the Spontaneous spell just right.

It works better the nArM5 way for several reasons

1. Consistency: From a game rules pov, it is easier to use the same Characteristic for both forms of spellcasting. I remember in ArM4, new players were frustrated with switching back & forth, and as I am a slacker (:mrgreen:), I often would forget to mention or remind people.
2. Balance: From a game balance pov, it is better that Intelligence is less of an all-important all-powerful characteristic. ArM5 magi are more well balanced having an average Int score of +2 and decent score in other Characteristics. Intelligence also no longer adds to study totals from books. But it still adds to all Lab Totals and many other things. It is also much easier to buy yourself up to an Intelligence of +5, using only two virtue points. Much more difficult in previous editions when it was a +5 Virtue.
3. Concept: It is a much cooler concept to base one’s ability to devise spells on the fly on their actual knowledge of the Arts, having little to do with their Intelligence. Spontaneous magic is more instinctual and reflexive than Formula spells that are thought out and planned. That is why you can Fast Cast any spont spell, but you have to first Master a Formulaic in order to be able to do the same thing.

@Arawn

Yes, taking extra Care worked for Spontaneous spells in previous editions, including 4th. One spends a minute per 5 levels of Spont spell being considered at at the end of that time one adds in one's Concentration score and reduces any potential botch dice by 1.

I just looked it up. Fourth edition was a long time ago, I forget all the little quirks it had. Though it doesn’t work the same in fifth, you can achieve similar results. Using Ceremonial casting allows you to add two abilities instead of just one. It is available for all Spontaneous spells and as an option for a Mastered Formulaic spell. T doesn’t reduce botch dice, but Spell Mastery an reduces more botch dice than just one.

@Arawn

If I'm stuck with the revised mechanics, Vares will use fatigue but have the sense to wait the two minutes for the level to recover before casting the next spell to avoid depleting himself if possible.

You are stuck with the revised mechanics
But as I pointed out, you may have instead cast Ceremonially, giving you the total you need to cast without fatigue. And you were down a fatige from casting Strings of the AC on the broken lab equipment, and did not state you were resting before casting Tals of the Ashes. Either you have to wait 12 minutes to recover the two fatigue levels (10 + 2), or spend 15 minutes to Ceremonial Cast. Remember, using these abilities allows you to put xp from the adventure into them, and I figured Vares would be happy to include Alchemy (Philosophiae) and Astrology (Artes Liberales) into his spellcasting.

[Marko_Markoko]

@MTKnife

@Marko Markoko

@MTKnife

Does Second Sight need to penetrate?

Scott

I don't think so. It depends on how it is used I guess. It detects species after they leave the subject with magic resistance. And regios don't normally have magic resistance. I can think of exceptions though, like a regio that has it's exact boundary traced out by an Aegis of the Hearth for example.

I'm not sure it's using species, though--um, I guess that depends on what species are.

Scott

You made me go check to see if I spelled it right.
In this context, are the things a body emits that is detected by the senses (sight, sound, smell, etc)
I also looked up Second Sight, which specifically states that Magic Resistance does not interfere with it.

[ladyphoenix]

What about Ameline's Sense holy/unholy and Prementions (admittedly she likely has a token) and Jehan's animal ken (supernatural ability)

[Marko_Markoko]

@ladyphoenix

What about Ameline's Sense holy/unholy and Prementions (admittedly she likely has a token) and Jehan's animal ken (supernatural ability)

Referencing RAW...

As both are supernatural abilities, the aegis has no effect while you are inside it. Animal Ken has no effect upon the animals, it's effect is upon you in allowing you to comprehend animal speech and speak in the animal tongue. Sense Holy & Unholy does in fact state that it must go up against Magic Resistance. Even against demons. That is harsh, but that's what is written.

[Arawn]

The relevant pages for using Extra Care in casting are page 187 in the 3rd Ed. main book and pages 76-77 in 4th Ed. I was off slightly in my description of the use with Formulaic magic: it takes only 1 minute per magnitude, the same as with Spontaneous Magic.

Ceremonial Magic has its place when it comes to attempting to replicating higher-magnitude spells, but for the lowest magnitudes it is generally a waste of time unless one has to be VERY careful due to environmental variables. Extra Care is something that is more applicable to general field use, whereas Ceremonial Casting is far more focused. Since there isn't anything actually revoking Extra Care, is it possible that both are applicable?

[Jarkman]

@Marko Markoko

] Sense Holy & Unholy does in fact state that it must go up against Magic Resistance. Even against demons. That is harsh, but that's what is written.

It is harsh. Vortigern and I realised this when we were thrashing out Ludo. Sense Holy & Unholy only helps against low Might demons, beyond that it draws a blank.
This makes summoning builds a tricky prospect as you never quite know what you're dealing with...
BTW, Second Sight's property of not having to worry about MR makes it invaluable, although it doesn't help determine the Realm of a summoned creature.

Cheers,

Lachie