Grog Development

Milan is in Italy, so no form of Spanish fits :laughing:
This list of languages may be useful.

Rhoo! Good one.
I like the "Clear Thinker" virtue, it's a nice touch.

Milan, Madrid, it was an M city... my goof

:laughing:
No worries.
Madrid is part of Castile, and only recently became an official city with representation in the royal courts (1188)

LOL. That sounds to me like saying Ottawa and Orlando are basically the same :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: They are O cities after all. :laughing:

Madrid is more or less a large fortified village at this time. Not much more than a fortress controlling some land of average to low strategic value. It does not become an important city until the XVIth century, when the kings place their permanent residency there.

The important city in the area is Toledo. Toledo is dominated heavily by the Church, so much, in fact, that one of the theories of why the actual capital of Spain was finally placed in Madrid instead of Toledo is that it had too much church for the liking of the king. Toledo is one of the top notch cities in terms of education (especially ecclesiastic education) in Europe as well at this time

Cheers,
Xavi

When I was googling for Barcelona suburbs, I initially picked Badalona because it sounded cool (like "Bad-alona :laughing: ). Maybe that is why I unconsciously placed it on the south side of town, even though it is north and the south side is the frickin' ocean :smiley:

So I'm a little bit concerned by Adan. Exactly how heretical are his theological views? Solomon is a former Benedectine monk, and while he isn't part of the clergy anymore, his views are pretty conservative.

He accepts the fact that other magi have thier own beliefs and he can't do much about that. And he deals with the muslims in the covenant as long as they don't proselytize to the grogs, but having a failed monk with questionable views might be too much for him to stomach.

Lets call it semi-Catharism. He became convinced of the doctrine that there is a Good God and an Evil God (pretty close to Zoroastrianism) but unlike the Cathars believes that the Catholic Church is still the church of the Good God. He also believes that Muslims worship the Evil God, but he is also uncertain as to his own opinion as to exactly how these two Gods relate to each other.

Which God do the Jewish people worship?

Yeah, that's a good question. Catharism states the the "bad God" was the God of the Old Testament, while the "Good God" was the God of the New Testament. In that case, the Jewish people would be seen as worshipping the "bad God". In this case, I'm not quite sure.

Does Adan see these god's as equals or the "good God" being superior to the "bad God". Also, He doesn't have any Islamic Theology skill, so what does he base his theory on?

He came across a copy of an Ancient Sumerian text describing the demon-God Yam, which he connected to the Yam of the old testament, and mixed this in with second hand reports of Catharism- the way he sees it Jews and Christians worship the Good God, Islam is descended from Babylon and worships the Bad God, God is all powerful, so therefore the two are either equally powerful or the Good God is more powerful but at a scope that mortals cannot perceive the difference. He doesn't exactly have all the details down yet, the 'revelation' has disturbed him a bit, plus he got kicked out of his monastery...

I like this.
Having the idea that the church venerates the good god, whereas Jews and Muslims venerate the bad one kinda make sense given the view on non-christians ("we are the good guys, these are the bad guys").
He could see the jews as deluded (some of them joined the christ, after all), and the muslims as conscious worshippers of evil.

Or he could vacillate between positions, depending on which argument he is considering that day. Because the Jewish God made promises the Christian God fulfilled, but then again the Jews killed Jesus to fulfill that promise, but on the other hand...

Or maybe we can leave religion as a background flavor instead of a main thing.
I am not comfortable with theological disputes.

Marko, this is why I brought it up in the first place. I personally have no problem with theological disputes (my college degree is essentially based around them :stuck_out_tongue: ) but I know they bother some people.

Unfortunately, grogs by their very nature tend to be pretty one-dimensional by purpose, and when a grogs "one-liner" is 'failed monk with beliefs bordering on heresy', and you have some pretty religious members in the covenant (Solomon, Arnau, perhaps others), it's going to come into play or the grog's going to be so far in the background that he might as well not be statted up anyway.

Based on silveroak's clarification, Solomon wouldn't refuse Adan's position in the covenant, but he would definitely do his due diligence to try and bring Adan back to the correct path. That can take place in the background, but it would definitely take place.

Unfortunately, I think a game like Ars Magica will by necessity have some level of theological disputes occruing just by the time period it's played in and the subject matter the game deals with.

Actually, I can handle it. I just don't like the way it affects other people sometimes and try to avoid conflict. You may recall, I banned Holy Magic and Goetic Magic from this saga for just that reason.
I also think that level of theological complexity is great for a companion or magus character, not so much for a grog though.
It also doesn't help that I think Catharism is immoral (in real life, I actually feel that way).

If you could mp me with the whys of this, I'm curious (genuinely: I'm not religious, and don't care, it's just intellectual)

It is because they believed in a God of Evil. That's scary stuff man!
That's really the only major point.
I am also not a fan of pacifism. It is one thing to not resist the evildoer when it comes to yourself, but this in no way removes responsibility to protect the innocent and helpless.

Well, Cathars were not the most happy tree huggers you could find around, believing the material word to be the place of the Bad Stuff (TM) but given a fair analysis of their world, with constant war famines et al it is not that difficult to understand why they thought so. You could actually make a similar case for today's world. And the god of the old testament is quite trigger-happy after all.

Fundamentally it is very similar to Zoroastrianism, except that traditional Zoroastrianism had a God of Light and a God of Dark. Most of the idea of good versus evil can be traced back to the Egyptian myths about the snake trying to swallow the sun. That and an odd bit in Sumerian/Babylonian mythology where Enlill/Yah/Yam was giving out the mehs to the Gods, and gave the meh of good and evil to humans instead of a God or Goddess, which has all kinds of interesting implications which are increasingly irrelevant to the game...