Hermetic 'Momentary' Creo Corpus and Creo Mentam effects (typically healing rituals and attribute buffs) use Vis and are permanent. Learned Magicians have similar SuFo, SuMa, & SuSa 'buffs' available with 'Momentary' Amulets -- do these require Vis? Are they permanent? If they are not intended to be permanent, then the 'Momentary' duration seems very weird.
Integration with Hermetic magic allows the possibility of 'quick creation' minor magic items; but other effects of integration are not mentioned -- like improving 'living conditions' or affecting botch dice, both of which are sort of bread-and-butter to LMs. If a Hermetic Magus learned the 6 Supernatural Abilities of the Learned Magicians & worked on integrating LM magic, is there anything in LM magic which would definitely-for-certain-always be out of bounds?
[Edit:] What sort of effect does TuFo 'Reduce the number of Botch dice rolled with an Ability (Magic Theory)' have on Hermetic experimentation? Or the level 2 TuFo guideline 'Prevent random mishaps from occurring to the character'?
Iirc lms don't have ritual magic so nothing they make should be permanent like the rituals you reference, those amulets probably aren't very good, but neither is a spell that turns you into a bear for a moment, it's perfectly possible to make spells with very limited utility in this game.
Don't forget that that good luck amulet is definitely affecting the magus, so will cause warping, and would do so as an integrated spell/item as well
Looking at the example effects, I see what you mean - the only examples of Momentary durations are SuMa spells to affect other spells cast immediately afterwards (much like MuVi effects), and VuSa effects to injure or inflict disease on someone (much like momentary PeCo effects). I would say you would need vis to perform permanent healing or increasing characteristics to keep it consistent with other types of magic. You could interpret it as Momentary = no longer than one combat round, making it pretty limited in use (you spend one round to give an ally a boost for one round?) unless you have Enduring Magic (which Learned Magicians can have).
The TuFo "Reduce the number of botch dice rolled with an ability" - if it has a duration for the entire season then it should reduce the number of botches on Hermetic experimentation.
The level 2 TuFo guideline "prevent random mishaps from occurring" is like a weak version of the Luck virtue - if something could happen at random to a character, then anyone under the protection of that effect will be less likely to have it happen. Say the characters are at a rowdy tavern, and a local may be spoiling for a fight - the SG should pick someone not under this effect to be the first target.
Learned Magicians don't do ritual effects, and only use vis for boosting charm casting.
They can't do permanent effects, so the Momentary duration is only for momentary effects.
Fortunam effects, like reducing botch dice, is currently not within the reach of Hermetic Magic. Integrating that would be a huge effort, and likely end in a new hermetic Form. ('Luck' or 'Fate' or something along those lines)
I would disagree. Do not forget that Hermetic Magic, with its 10 Forms and 5 Techniques, is meant to be universal (at least as far as the Lunar Sphere is involved). The only stuff ultimately out of reach for it are the Greater Limits of Magic. Anything that does not even break a Lesser Limit does not even require a Hermetic Breakthrough.
Bless/Curse effects could certainly be integrated from other Traditions, or developed from scratch. I'd probably have them as either Rego, or Creo/Perdo effects, with the Form of the target.
Hermetic Magic may be meant to be universal. Doesn't mean it is.
Luck/Fate doesn't fit into any of the existing Hermetic Forms.
This is made fairly explicit in the Learned Magicians chapter: "The Art of Fortunam does not
have a Hermetic equivalent." This unlike the other LM Arts, all of which correspond roughly to one or more Hermetic Arts.
Let's be clear. The Hermetic theoretical framework is universal (see the very first sentence in the Hermetic Magic chapter of the Core book: "In the 8th century the wizard Bonisagus developed a universal theory of magic and the Order of Hermes was born"). Yes, there are still things it cannot yet do, but that's just an issue of doing some work to bring them into the framework.
This only means that the Art of Fortunam does not feat neatly into one of the Forms or Techniques. But this does not mean you'd need a new Form (or Technique). It just means you'd need to spread its effects across different Arts.
I disagree that everything is covered by the existing hermetic Arts.
Universal or not, there are things not included in the current state of hermetic magic. Adding them to the framework may well necessitate adding new Arts to the framework of hermetic magic.
Just look at the infamous "stop the moon" scenario from Dies Irae. They had to invent a whole new Form to do what they wanted. So obviously the existing Forms don't cover everything, but adding new Forms to the framework of Hermetic Magic is possible.
I do not think that's a good counterexample. As I mentioned before, my view is that the 10 Forms cover the sublunar world completely, just like the 4 realms cover the sublunar supernatural world completely, and all atoms in the sublunar sphere are of just 4 types.
What happens if you bring in stuff from "outside the world" is something else entirely. Note that even the possibility that such things may happen is saga dependent. Breaching the Lunar Sphere is a Lesser Limit, though some magi believe it's actually a Greater one; the Dies Irae scenarios are not necessarily even possible, "canonically".
If you assume there exists (in the sublunar world etc. etc.) mystical stuff that does not fall within the 10 Forms, then there should be stuff for which Form Magic Resistance does not apply (and there isn't).
EDIT: Let me add that I think we are derailing the thread, and given that I don't seem to have much to add beyond this point, I'll just stop here. But feel free to open a new thread if you want to discuss this further.
Canonically the Dies Irae scenarios are just as possible as all the other published adventures and story seeds - they can happen if the troupe/SG decides they can happen, otherwise they can't happen.
As for Form Magic Resistance, there is a catch-all rule which basically say that if you have no idea what Form to use for MR, then use Vim. So even if there is no matching Form, you still have Form MR.
We do have an example of a Hermetic Breakthrough that doesn't break a Lesser Limit in Legends of Hermes: allowing Vim spells to effect each realm without reinvention. This is because it "fundamentally changes the nature of Hermetic Magic". Adding a new form would presumably be a similarly fundamental change.
