Darn - I just wrote a long answer and was about to post it as my computer went dark and flushed it all
I don't want to write it all over. So the short version.
You use a lot of quotes but you really do not include them in your arguments. I would like to see a connection, especially since it seems to me that your points are contradicted by the quotes or viceversa. You also have some quotes that seem to say you have some further points but you dont make them known.
I am also uncertain about your distinguishing between unnatural and natural patterns.
On the Aquam requisite - I considered it, but since all the book spells in the Covenants do not use it except when dealing with liquid ink before or right in the process of using it, I decided against the need for the Aquam req.
I think that puts the lid on sensing writing's coffin, sadly, outside a specific house rule, you'd need to read the mind of someone who was reading it.
I suppose a generous Storyguide could say that if you had your eyes YOU could read it, getting around this whole guideline.
Personally it sounds like Mu Corpus Base 2 could get around blindness, or a InMe base 15 with the help of familiar or other reader is your best bet.
Then again, you're talking about a level 5 spell getting rid of a Major Flaw for Sun duration, that you could cast yourself at will, so that will probally rub everybody the wrong way.
Edit: Scratch that, ArM5 pg 80, "The Limit of Essential Nature": As a rule, any disability purchased as a Flaw at character creation is part of the character's essential nature, while disabilities acquired later are not.
So you can't MuCo to see. Which is what you want anyway
Mostly i put the quotes in to have them all in one place.
I don't have a cohesive argument as yet on why i think this needs Im.
It is the Perception aspect i am looking at.
I'm considering texts as an arrangement of the individual components (An , He , Te) ,
that could not occur in nature.
Writing may be natural for literate people ,
but it does not occur naturally.
That patterns that occur naturally on an object ,
whether by growth or even erosion by wind or wave ,
have a pattern which can be read.
When you form ink into a pattern , and don't use Im ,
even when you have an "intricacy" factor ,
the In component gives you knowledge about the ink ,
not how you perceive the ink to form writing.
Some of my other considerations are on the spells that would need to be developed to teach a blind apprentice.
(hence the Muto references for magical senses to others)
I don't agree (or more likely, I think we're taking different perspecives on what Furion's spell does). This guideline is saying that writing has no mind, it isn't mentem so you can't use mentem on it. I believe Furion's latest spells are more similar to using eyes of the eagle to read a book from across the room, than it is to having a spell magically read for him.
I will have to dash shorthly so I will take this in strides and otherwise pickup when I am back tonight.
Concerning the Mentem:
I am the SG so I guess I have to be lenient..
Well actually I do not think that will be neccesary. I think the cap described in the mentem guidelines is there for one sensible purpose: to ensure that people do not think that you can read a book simply by using magic without having any appropriate Abilities. Why else would characters spend a lot of time learning to read and write and learning languages? Then I would be smarter just to spend those years studying magic instead. Basically there needs to be an requirement to your Abilities for you to understand written word. Another good reason for this is the plot opportunities for the SG. So many plots would be ruined if any peice of text or symbol could be deciphred by magic alone (I for one introduced a little piece of text almost 20 years ago in the saga - no one can read because no one knows the language - cuneiform - and now they players have just had this handout in their hands for decades without being able to understand it - it is a great mystery and thus a great story. And some day the story will be sprung on them...). So the mentem cap is on the character's abilities (anyone whisper xp?) - not his senses. This character has the abilities, what this spell does is to translate text into something he can sense, and thus read it. Or as Erik put it, it is like eye of the eagle - except it uses other means to make something impercievable percievable to the caster.
For now there is no familiar - and he needs to function on his own aswell. Also, I think the spell makes for some damn interesting scenes.
I have wondered however if, in general (not for this char), whether you could use muto to give your self a third eye on the forehead or use animal to copy an animals eye somwhere...
This is neither for sun nor getting rid of it - there is much more to blindness - this is just a nice thematic way for him to read. Even if not in an optimal way
I know I can't - even if I could I have worked into his background that he has personal inhibitions toward sight or temporary healing spells. So it is exactly what I want!
Well - I agree that some spells have to distinguish between natural and unnatural or man-made. But I do not see the need here. Another spell would not distinguish between what is natural or not (though some forms raise the base level). The thing is that all other possible patterns, if intricate enough would register to the caster aswell, but that does not make it imaginem, it can however as in the spell suggestion above, cause the caster potential loads of distractions. But we all know the difference between the texture of sand on the beach and letters - the only thing enabling us to do so is the interpretation of the perceptual input, and training. Just as a blind person today can read by the fingers and the use of the Braille System.
Concernig the ink, it does "emit" species and of course imaginem spells very similar to these spell could do the same - they would convert the species to sound. But in any regard the shapes and contours of the ink is real and it is tantigble (hence Terram with An/He req) and thus it can be detected directly with magic. What conpounds this spell and makes us all wonder a bit, is the fact that is uses Magical Sense-targets. But even though the caster recieves the information in form of species (sounds or touch) this is not the same as being a Im-spell.
A very interesting question. I have decided that he was not born blind. Something in his life, connected to his magic or his religious background trickered the blindness. But he might very well have been blind for some or all of his apprenticeship, which must have presented a challenge to his learning and to his master.
I can see what you're saying (unlike Furion's mage who can hear what you're seeing ).
However, "Note that writing does not contain any information of itself" sounds pretty final to me, no matter what guideline it's under.
However, I understand how one might say it's only talking about if writing is "Mentem", but such an idea seems so far afield from what "Mentem" is described as, I find that unlikely.
Now if Mentem was the form of understanding writing in a previous edition, I will stand corrected.
One more thing I would point out, the Level 2 InTe Furion uses in his spells allows you to learn one visable property of an object that someone with the appropriate skills could determine just by looking.
I think that would be the writing on a book's spine in a library, or the cover text of a book on a table. You'd need to open the book and go page by page like a sighted person if you buy that you can read with InTe. Perhaps the level 4 guideline "Learn one mundane property of an object" is correct.
Basically sensual input is processed and interpreted by a trained brain. A spell can not duplicate that 2nd part, but it can give you sensual input or change it something you can sense. Then it is only a question about practice - just as you and I both learned to read in school: by processing a visual input. This spell only changes the input, it cannot synthezise the mental process. And nor does it.
Concerning the Terram Guidelines - I see that wording, "visual property", as a guideline to the level of insight rather than the means of the insight. You can tell the size of a rock from another or whether it is sand or dirt or rock or iron etc - which is an apparant quality - but that does not mean you actually have to look at it. Take Probe for Pure Silver as an example.
As i interpret this , you learn one visible property , that can be determined by an appropriate skill ,
e.g. "this is silver".
The spell enables you to sense silver by a non-standard means (smell).
As the duration is Momentary , i would not be allowing anyone to track silver to its lair by scent.
How does this spell determine the context of letters so as to differentiate between the different ways they will sound?
Letters may look the same , but are not always pronounced the same way.
What is the difference in sound between different coloured letters?
[color=darkred]A [color=red]A [color=green]A [color=blue]A for example.
Upper and lower case , italics , underlined and so on.
I would consider having to learn a new "listening" skill , similar to learning braille ,
so that you can understand text by hearing it.
Or at least call for language comprehension checks at an increased difficulty.
Writing is reasonably clear and consistent with high quality works ,
but different scribes may well have distinctive individual writing styles ,
with perception adjustments having to be made from time to time.
All those nuances you mention are perceptible to the human eye. Nothing suggest that this is not possible to the human touch or hearing, if augmented by enchanting the sense in question to percieve matter (rather than sound). I would leave the description of how those nuances appear in sound to the be influenced by the sigil and to be a matter of in-game description.
The spell will not pronounce the letters (the term pronounce involves words), it will make sound out of letters. It is not the same thing - at least in a world were magic is a reality.
Reasonable. Which makes this spell unusable but to the trained. In keeping with the mentem cap discussed above.
No different then from the people who read by visual input. Today we are all pampered and used to printed texts, but anyone who ever had to study from handwritten protocols would probably relate it to be a hard and tiresome task to decipher peoples handwritting, but also that as you get practice this gets better and faster.
I wasn't saying that the spell pronounced anything ,
merely pointing out that there are a number of variations on the same letter ,
depending on size , colour , orientation on the page , stylus used to form the letter , ink used to draw it with and so on.
This spell is probably sensitive enough to distinguish between different batches of the same type of ink.
Thus changing how letters sound , even in the same book.
The harder thing will be the change of pronunciation (not by the spell) ,
from the arrangement of letters that form words and sentences.
The physical pattern does not change ,
so the spell will have all letters sounding the same (provided they are nearly identically written).
I have to say that the most problematic thing about the Hearing version of this spell, and why I have for now decided completely against its usefulness (unless solved somehow), is the undeniable problem of sequencing! As it is all the lines and patterns of all the letters would sound simulataniously. It will not work if this is not adressed. Hearing as opposed to the sense of sight or touch cannot be directed or controlled in that sense - and the target of a magical sense spell would no matter the magic still be limitid by the natural limits of the spell. So unless the sounds can somehow be sequences, the spell is worthless.
I still like the idea and I will think of ways to achieve something similar.
I will however keep the Target: Touch spell for now. And in line with the Kiss spell being discussed in the other current thread, I will consider whether this is is possible to only enchant a part of your feeling of touch - e.g. to only enchant your hands or the tip of a finger.
Having hijacked this thread somewhat ,
how about a seperate thread on training a blind apprentice?
How do you write Lab Texts , how useful are you as a lab assistant?
That sort of thing.
The improved version Apromor's Flexible Cloak adds a T: +1 Part (PeAq 20) and allows water to touch the lips and inside of the mouth without being destroyed.
You may sense if a wind that is blowing by you had been disturbed by something unusual in its path. Several people, a cart and horse, a ReAu spell, etc, all would qualify, however a normal forest, a couple people, or a few mundane animals wouldn't. You will get a very general feeling about how disruptive the "something" is, and about how far (as the wind blows) it was from you, but nothing too specific. Each round provides the oppertunity to learn about a single disturbance from the wind, starting at the nearest and working its way backwards. This spell can only relate things that have occured in the last day of the winds travel, the exact distance varies by the speed of the particuar wind.
(Base 4, Touch +1, Concentration +1)
Scent for the Strike
InAu 10
R: Per
D: Con
T: Smell
While under the enchantment of this spell, the magus can smell where lightning is likely to strike. This is most useful to know how likely a strike is to occur where you are standing at the moment, but with a Per + Aware roll of 6+ a discerning nose might detect a high or low likelyhood spot within 10 or so paces. This spell is of no help to directed Lighting spells, only that which occurs naturally.
(Base 2, Sun +2, Group +2)
I somehow deviate from the subject, because what I'm going to propose is an effect to be put into an enchanted item, not a spell.
Memory of the Stone
InIm 15
Range : Personnal
Duration : Diameter
Target : Vision
The enchanted stone records events that happen in front of the bearer. When the bearer concentrates to, he can review the sequence recorded in the stone. If a new sequence is recorded, the old one is erased.
(Base 1, +1Duration, +4 Vision, +1 Additional Effect : reviewing)
+the number of times per day you want to be able to use it
).
