level 10-15 spells

Steam is not always hot enough to burn though.
At the outlet from a boiler it will be extremely hot ,
but once it spreads it is cooler and need not burn.

Being able to cause +03 damage in such a relatively large space ,
5 pace diameter x 2 pace deep ,
seems better than an equivalent ignem spell.

The rego aquam spells using base 03 do not have a damage component ,
despite creating snow or frost.

Which is complicated by the fact that the effect of the body is dependent on the body part. Sticking your hand into hot steam is one thing, popping your head into it another, breathing it a third, in terms of how serious and what is does to you.

What you say is true, it doesn't have to be hot. But it can be hot, and, in my opinion, without the Ignum requisite, since that is mentioned in the guidelines. And just because some level 3 effects don't cause damage, it doesn't mean others can't.

As for the size of the effect, Aquam has a larger Individual than Ignem.

As for the damage, the only Rego Aquam that does damage, Tower of Whirling Water, does +15 damage on a Base 10 effect, better than the only Rego Ignem that does damage, Burst of Sweeping Flames, which does +5 to +15, my spell only does +3 for a level 3 (admittedly with extra effects and limitations).

But thanks for taking the time to critique.

I have been mulling over this spell - but now I'll put here to get some feedback. I can't really decide on it and some aspects make me reconsider it.

The Words of Wisdom Given Voice
InTe 10
R: Per
D: Conc
T: Hearing
This makes the caster hear any nearby texts or inscriptions as if the author spoke the written words. Comparison seems to show that each caster hears a specific voice differently, and since the voices only speak in completely gibberish if the language of the text is unknown, it's generally believed that the voices are in fact not the voices of the authors. A novice to this spell should take heed not to use it in a library or other such place as the sheer cacophony might be disruptive and undo any chance of meaningful study.
(Base: 2, Concentration +1, Hearing +3)
The sigil of Austerius Scholae Tremendi, known for his uncompromising starkness, supposedly had the voices speaking in commanding spartan and harsh syllables. He is said to have punished ill-favoured grogs by dragging them into the covenants library and casting a version of this spell on them (a practice stopped after a particularly frightened grog toppled several shelves and trampled three irreplaceable summae to peices)

I'd say that the writing isn't a property of the stone. I don't think that I'd allow the spell to work as it is in my game.

Perhaps an intellego imagonem spell to perceive the images and a matching creo mentem spell to provide a mental voice that that reads the text. This way the casters mind (supplimented by the mentem spell) is doing the reading rather than the magic iteself.

One of the things I have been considering back and forth is in fact to give it a Mentem requisite.

Another thing lacking is that the version as is of course rests on herbam or animal casting requisites. But whether to make it a InIm spell... a good question. This character in question is actually better at that, but I figured it more of a quality of the objects Form than Imaginem. I'll have to mull some more.

Then you'll also have to boost the spell to arcane connection range, hope that the text is recent enough to still act as an AC (see Covenants), that the author is still alive, that you can penetrate his MR (if any)...

As Erik pointed out, all you really have available to play with is the caster's mind, not the author's. If the caster cannot read the text, tough luck. Yes, life is very difficult for a blind magus. You'll probably have to hire a servant to read from the texts for you. And may Bonisagus help you with symbols and diagrams.

Listen, the authors' voices is only fluff. As I made clear in the dexcription they are not an item, but only what the caster seems to hear when the magic uses his senses to translate the magic. If you can smell gold through rock walls or hear magic residue, then a hearing spell should be able to do this. It is only a matter of what Forms to use and how to set the base level.

cringes. OK! OK! :cry:

Hey ! :smiling_imp:

Don't run away! :cry:

I don't really agree. The matter comes down to what forms to use. Hermetic magic does not have a form to use for words, in the same way that it does not have a form to use for fate or danger or many other entities.

I like it this way. I don't believe that we just need to choose the "right" form or forms to deal with words and text. I think that there is no right form to deal with words and writing.

That's why I suggested two seperate spells, one to bring the images of the text to the caster and another to split off part of the caster's brain to read the text. IMO the reading needs to be done by a mind, magic is not up to the task.

Ah, now I see the cause for your reservation.

These are my thoughts on it: I think that words and text are to seperate things. Text is the physical colouration, or lines ingraved in clay, or rock or anything else for that matter, whereas words are something that only happens as an interpretation, in a mind equipped for it, of the lines or engravings. I believe a spell could detect text but not words, and the same goes for danger or fate. A spell could give a magus knowledge of the beast approaching, but not whether there is danger or not. The sense or concept of danger is something realised by the magus dependent on how he reacts to the input of the approaching beast. You might say that things like danger, fate, words, knowledge etc are concepts that only a person could realise, and that magic can have no hold on or concept of.

In that regard the magic can only give a person the inputs or sensations, and these might be supernatural, and then react to them. Thus if a person able to read letters and knowing a language uses "extrasensual" powers such as magic to get the physical inputs, that person can read the text in question. If he cannot read or can read but doesnt understand the language in the text, then it will be impossible no matter what magic is used.

This was my basic approach. Then I thought of basic spells with e.g. a range:touch and target:individual to touch one parchment at a time and get a physical imprint of the text and thus read it it (granted the target would otherwise be able to read and understand it), but to make it more colourful I thought of the Magical Senses targets. To me they are often somewhat hard to figure out. But I do have the sense that with Intellego magic they can more or less duplicate most effects, but limited by the normal reach of your senses, so that they could in this example exchange the physical sensation of one parchment to enchant one of your senses to be able to do this.

The example spell above might be muddy in the description - but my point was that all the interpretation and understanding of the text is done by the target and not by the magic. Without a target able to read and understand text, no information would be perceptible - it would only then be the meaningless "sound" of lines and ink stains. Just as it would be meaningless for a analphabet to look at a written page. He would however still be able to look at it and sense it, although he could not make sense of it.

Does this sound sensible? :slight_smile:

Yes it does. From your description I had understood the spell to be reading rather than just sensing.

My preference would be to twist the spell to be more "synestiesic" (if that's a real word.

The Words of Wisdom Given Voice
InTe 10
R: Per
D: Conc
T: Hearing
This spell allows the caster to receive images through his sense of hearing as he were seeing with his ears.
Because both sound and image information is comming to the caster through his sense of hearing it is often difficult for him to make sense of his suroundings especially if there is a great deal of sound or visual stimuli overwhelming his hearing. It is possible for the caster of this spell to read though his modified senses but it is difficult to do (per + concentration roll of 9+) unless he is in complete silence or darkness.
(Base: 2, Concentration +1, Hearing +3)

I think that the spell should have a Muto component.
You use InTe to sense the sight-based specie and muto to alter them to sound.
(Obviously this spell is for mineral inks)

I think this spell needs one of those miscellaneous level adds ,
such as Flexibility +01 or more ,
to relate the sight-based specie to a particular language known by the caster.

Firstly a Terram spell cannot sense the species, but only the object itself, sencondly I don't think it needs a Muto req - that is what the T:Hearing is for. Ahh they beauty of Intellego Sense spells.

Or just physical items in general - add He or An as casting req and you are good to go.

I have considered adding a magnitude, and also took a look of Angafea's abstract in the other thread on those. Thought of calling it intricacy. But it should not be related to the sight-based species, as they are not at all a part of the spell. The extra magnitude should be to have the caster only have what resemble text be percieved by his magical hearing.

Yes it did - it was meant as flavour only. I never meant illiterates to be able to "read" this way. I would however, out of flavour, retain the idea that if this spell was used on an analphabet or someone who did not know the language, the effect would to the target (minding that he would still get the sensory input of the sounds of lines and inks etc) seems as garbbled unintelligble murmurings.

As to your suggestion on the spell, I think it is more clearer (especially loosing all the flavour fluff), but the spell description now very much sounds as a InIm spell rather than a InTe. This really do not constitute like a direct translation of "seeing" as no species of sight are involved. The spell detects the "quality" or makeup of the physical objects directly and it does not use the species radiating from them. As an unforeseen side-effect, this spell would not catch or be able to read any letters made or changed by Imagonem magic. On the other hand it would not be befuddled by them either. Also the amount of light would not matter either as the spell does not use the light or visual species. In fact I think your version would make perfect sense if you changed the arts to InIm instead of InTe.

My magus would actually be better at the Imaginem version, but I think I prefer the Terram one. Partly because this version almost seems to powerful - that it could be used to walk and navigate by as well (and I prefer my blind fella to be tumbling down the halls in all his indignity).

Here is a new version

The Words of Wisdom Given Voice
InTe 15
R: Per
D: Conc
T: Hearing
Casting Req: An, He
This spell makes sound out of solid objects. The spell is set to only make sound out of the finest lines and patterns. If in the presence of text and if the target can read and knows the alphabet and language, and after getting accustomed to the experience, he will be able to understand the sounds of the text and thus read it.
Since this spell can be confusing and the sounds overwhelming it is hard for the target to make sense of all the sounds much less "read" and understand them it does require significant concentration on his part (Per + Concentration roll of 9+).
Since this spell cannot distinguish between the lines of texts and other fine intrisic patters such as a embroidery, gobelins or even the bark a shriveled tree (or just the sheer volumes of texts in a library!), a cacophony of sounds can drown any attempt at reading and studying. Thus the user of this spell prefer silence of other non-magical sounds and to be somewhere out of "earshot" from large quantities of intrisic patterns.
(Base: 2, Concentration +1, Hearing +3, Intricacy +1)

A Touch Of Insight
InTe 5
R: Per
D: Conc
T: Touch
Casting Req: An, He
This spell makes touch sensation of intricate details and the finest patterns of a solid objects. If touching an object with a text and if the target can read and knows the alphabet and language, and after getting accustomed to the experience, he will be able to understand the feel of the text and thus read it.
This spell does require the caster to think of what he is wearing and what he is touching while under the effect of the spell, or he might become distracted.
Since this spell can make it hard to distinguish between the lines of texts and other fine intrisic patters such as a embroidery, gobelins or even the bark a shriveled tree, the novel caster might at times mistake any of the above as a text in a to him unknown analphabet.
(Base: 2, Concentration +1, Touch +1, Intricacy +1)

How does these sound ( :smiley: )?

I think the second one is much less confusing to the caster as he will only get the input from what he touches and not everything in earshot. On the other hand the first one could be used to read from afar or even from closed books, or trying to navigate a library.

I'd imagine text, being such fine lines, to have a very weak sound. I'd say the sounds of a closed book can be rather muffled and confused, an indescrnible mess - attempting to read it would be like attempting to hear a single person's shout in a roaring stadium from half a mile away. Reading by hearing would be more appropriately done by carefully listening in to different parts of an open text.

Sense magic is so very novel. I like the strangeness and otherworldliness of it very much. It feels very magical.

The sound wouldn't have to be weak, it is not like the mass is directly translated into sound. It is more as if the magic does the change of giving a mute object sound. I expect the nature of the sounds to be very influenced by the sigil of the caster. Weak sounds could be a nice touch, but it could also depend on the boldness of the writings (or patterns) or the edge or sharpness of it points or the plum roundness of its curves... etc.

I certainly think one of the greatest assets of this spell is the possibility for some interesting vivid scenes!

I agree - and that is they beauty of it. It is terribly awkward, but very mysterious. I do not think it is possible to study like this for any great effect. I am tempted, inspired by Erik's earlier post, to think of a Mentem spell to cast on yourself to structure the sounds when using this spell in a "stadium" such as in a library. It could be a spell to make your mind block out, or emphazise, all but a single word or phrase. Combined these two spells could make you sit in the middle of a library taking in the noise of the "stadium", letting it wash over you and then find the material you are searching (any mentioning of Diedne for example, or the humours or Charlemange etc).

I agree. With this spell that would require an empty space devoid of other texts or textures making noise. So another spell might be better, or the touch spell i suggested.

It is and it really does, and I really like it!

And this character I am toiling with will be very sense-oriented even if blind. But the Sense magic is also quite hard to get a hold on - the logic really tests your modern "filter" and I often have a hard time figuring out how it works in spells.

Intellego page 77

Magical Senses page 113

InTe Base 02 page 153

Intellego Mentem Guidelines page 149

Muto Mentem Guidelines page 150

Imho , these spells still need an Im requisite.
To me , these spells would allow you to hear the natural patterns that occur on things.
Not an unnatural patterning such as writing.
One could possibly argue , that "hearing" the ink used in writing needs an Aq requisite also.