What happens if a mage receives two or more warping points while still trapped in Wizard's Twilight? Or is standing on an overlap between two simultaneously massive magical effects? I'm also explicitly looking at the effects of a weaponised form of the spell The Enigma's Gift.
Does each simultaneous twilight effect wait its turn? Do they all add together for the purposes of the opposed rolls? Does something else happen that's not obvious in the rules?
I think nothing happens apart from the gain in warping points, you can’t enter twilight if you’re already in it.
I think that nothing else can happen to you if you are in Twilight including the accumulation of additional warping points from other sources. You obviously experience the effects of Twilight, and all sort of visions etc., but based on ArM5 description of Twilight:
If the maga’s body remains in the real
world while she is in Twilight, it is completely
immune to magic, mundane damage, aging,
and hunger. In many ways it seems to be out-
side the world although it still appears within
it. A maga’s body is also unable to perform
magic while she is in Twilight.
So, if someone multicasts 5 instances of the Enigma's Gift, and the magus succumbs to Twilight due to the first, the remaining 4 are simply ignored.
I would add up all the Warping points that happen during the same turn. I'm not sure off the top of my head what should happen if you receive additional Warping points while trying to resist Twilight.
That makes more sense. I missed that passage, it appears.
The thing is, entering twilight in the first place isn't quite instantaneous, at least not if you try to resist.
I'm somewhat annoyed that I missed the whole "Mage gains Protection from Everything" clause in the main book while pouring over the differences between faerie and divine warping. Thanks guys
I'm reading this quote and note that the body is "unable" to perform magic. Is that to mean that magic is related to the body and not the mind? because when doing the transformation of a magus into faerie, the magic aspect is regulated by "transforming the mind".
Also it would be a very good element to take into account of what happens when a magus cast a MuMe on himself to transform his mind into something else, like the example in the core book: Inmost companion:
"The target's mind is made physical as a bird. This bird normally stays close to the target's body, but need not. If the target has Magic Resistance, it protects both his body and mind, as normal. No matter how far it travels, the target's mind controls his body, as well as the bird's, as normal. In particular, it can see through both sets of sense organs. If the bird is killed, the target also dies, as his mind has been killed.(Base 25, +1 Eye, +2 Sun)"
and thus imply that the magus control both, but magic is only useable on the body side, not the mind.
Do we also need to take from that quote that into the twilight, the magus is unable to use magic if his body didn't go (which is not mandatory as the quote says "if") since only his mind would be there? that may be quite bothersome for the magus if he encounters anything in the twilight ? (which is not necesserily the same as the twilight void as discussion into the box of RoP p24), but can still be played: ARM5DE p229: "The experiences of magae in Twilight vary enormously. Some experience a dreamlike copy of the real world. Others encounter strange creatures, or copies of themselves, or feel an infinite benevolence watching over the universe, or an infinite malevolence likewise. These may be played out if desired."; but playing this without magic for magi was not something I thought would happen if their body remained behind.
I think the key point is that there are two ways to enter twilight- either you completely vanish and physically enter the twilight (nothing in the mundane world) or you leave behind a body which doesn't actually interact with the world around it- it is essentially in temporal stasis.
It really doesn't have anything to do with where magic originates- after all if the mind enters twilight and leaves the body behind it (typically) perceives itself to have a physical body while in twilight and can (often) use magic while there.
While this is true, if the magi tries to control twilight, that takes two minutes. The warping is piling on if there is a control attempt, as twilight has not started. I believe there was another thread talking about how terrifying multicasting Enigma's gift is.
Not exactly. The way it's written is that:
I disagree with ezzelino on one element. For the multiple casting, all copies of the spell are simultaneously cast and simultaneously resolved. If the spell cast multiple times is Enigma's Gift, it remains, in my view - "a single event", and not prolonged exposure. First you resolve all of the castings to decide how many of them penetrate, and them you roll for Twilight Avoidance. You don't stop at the first one with the rest hitting the twilight immunity wall - they are simultaneous. As such, the twilight points stack both for the difficulty of avoiding the twilight, and the cost/benefit of understanding it or failing to.
I think it's somewhere between these. temprobe is correct that multiple casting is simultaneous, so there isn't really one being resolved first, so the whole succumbing to one and ignoring the others doesn't really match the rules. However, that doesn't mean they're a single event. Consider being struck by 5 multiply cast Pilum of Fire. That's not one +75 damage to be absorbed; that's 5 separate +15 damages to be absorbed. Similarly, 5x The Enigma's Gift does not give 25 Warping Points to be checked for Twilight; it's 5 separate 5-point checks for Twilight. This becomes really important with a low-level version that gives 1 Warping Point, where multiply casting this 5 times never causes a check for Twilight. However, unlike Wounds, you can't really be in Twilight multiple times simultaneously. So with 5 checks for 5 points, how do you resolve the Twilight episode when multiple fail? I would probably add all the points together after checking for avoiding Twilight, similar to how the several separate wound penalties end up stacking.
I think this is a broader issue. When multiple instantaneous, simultaneous events affect someone or something, how are they resolved, barring specific rules? I would say that they are "serialized", i.e. you resolve one after the other; being "simultaneous" simply means that nothing else can intervene between the resolution of one and the next.
Otherwise, things become ... difficult. What does it mean that you engulf someone in a bonfire five times "simultaneously"? Surely, you are not exposing him to any stronger heat (a ward capable of stopping a single fire, will stop all five). Nor that you are exposing him to heat for a longer duration since all exposure from the five effects occurs exactly at the same time. So why should he incur five times as much damage?
It seems to me the question is which order of resolution- version 1 you resolve penetration first going A through E and then check twilight. If any of them come up where there is twilight then the rest automatically fail to cause twilight since they are already in twilight.
Version 2 you check each casting for penetration and then (if warranted) twilight. If any of them trigger twilight then the others have no effect.
To return to the pilum of fire example the first would be equivalent to five separate streams of fire hitting at the same time, but in the Vim realm, while the second would be more of a machinegun effect- a burst of spells so close together as to be effectively, but not truly, simultaneous.
YSMV
On the issue of simultaneity, if they're not truly resolved separately and simultaneously, but one right after the other, why is it that you can fall unconscious and then keep casting spells? On the caster end we already have this simultaneous stuff showing up. So why would it be explicitly simultaneous and then cease to be so?
It is not that obvious that you can fall unconscious and then keep casting spells, at least to me. But even if that's the case, it's a special case explicitly spelled out.
I don't know. Let me ask you. Suppose Venator the Hoplite multicasts 5 copies of a 2nd magnitude Demon's Eternal Oblivion at some Duke of Hell with Infernal Might 39. His casting score is 38, and his Penetration bonus is +3. He rolls in order 2, a lucky 14, 6, 3, 5. What happens to the Duke of Hell?
In my games, it gets obliterated.
The first roll fails to penetrate (38+3+2-10=33).
The second penetrates, and strips 10 Might from the Demon (38+3+14-10=45).
The third now penetrates the Demon's new MR of 29, further lowering it, and so do - easily - the fourth and fifth.
Does only the second penetrate in your games, on the basis that its effects do not lower the MR of the Demon "in time" to help the remaining instances penetrate?
Well, that's the issue. It doesn't say that. If they're simultaneous, that doesn't happen. Anyone who's claiming they're sequential, however, needs to deal with this consequence and explain it. Of we could stick to them being truly simultaneous, as they seem to be when it says "simultaneous."
As for the duke, I'm going to figure there is no aura, as that's missing. It looks like only one gets through. After all, they're simultaneous. This would be just like firing off spells and losing fatigue but still getting to fire off more of them even after you've lost more than you have, right?
You seem to think "simultaneous" isn't simultaneous. So I ask you why someone can fall unconscious and then keep spending more fatigue to cast spells.
I am not saying "simultaneous" isn't "simultaneous". I am just asking how one should resolve mechanically stuff that is defined as simultaneous. I think the cleanest way is to serialize the stuff, resolving one effect after the other, barring explicit instructions on how to do otherwise.
Otherwise ... suppose I multicast, at R:Voice, 5 copies of a ReCo spell that moves the target 100 paces away from me (Bigby's Invisible Shove!). Assuming all my casting totals are high enough to have the spell penetrate, what happens? Does the spell shove my target 500 paces away from me? Or just 100? Or ... ? If you serialize, it becomes way easier to adjudicate such cases.
But you did in your example. Let's sort out the demon duke, as it's easier. You wrote
He rolls in order 2, a lucky 14, 6, 3, 5. What happens to the Duke of Hell?
We're now accepting that is incorrect, right? It was not rolled "in order." Those were simultaneous rolls. The rolls are 2, 3, 5, 6, 14. There is no order to them. So what happens to the demon duke? If your answer relies on the order of those rolls, then we're in non-canonical territory.
Once we fix this part, it will help resolving what's happening with the CrVi effect.
On the ReCo, that's easy enough. You force 5 times "you end up 100 paces away from where you are now." They end up 100 paces away, from where they are now, as all the spells see them in the same place and tell them to go to the same place. It's no easier to adjudicate this by serializing them.