I'm away from my books. Does the flat bonus (+3/+6) also requires the spell to be potent? Or only the added bonus due to casting tools?
Anyway, I wouldn’t remove the requirement to invent potent versions of the spell to add S&M bonus.
I'm away from my books. Does the flat bonus (+3/+6) also requires the spell to be potent? Or only the added bonus due to casting tools?
Anyway, I wouldn’t remove the requirement to invent potent versions of the spell to add S&M bonus.
The flat bonus is just like having a Magical Focus, but you don't get quite as much out of it in general. That's just for that particular character. It doesn't matter if you're making/casting a Potent spell or not.
The only thing Potent Magic lets you do with Potent spells is invent them in the first place. Anyone can use a Potent spell, so long as they have the MT to learn it.
I don't think that was the intent? I think he was simply proposing not having to remake them every single time your MT went up? Unless I'm mistaken @Vortigern
Aside from the flat bonus, yeah.
There are basically two versions of the HR I was contemplating. But the crux of the matter is that I believe that the requirements for Potent Spells overall make the virtue non-competitive as a choice compared to other options at the same grade of virtue/investment. The extra time and thus xp costs involved in making the virtue work are completely seamless/transparent when compared to say a Magical Focus.
This would make it so the bonus (S&M) is applicable to any spell in the category of the virtue to which the user has appropriate casting tools. The bonus is still capped by Magic Theory. This thus provides the same possible bonus from the virtue just without the extra burden of Potent Spells being required.
Potent Spells then don't exist and can't be learned by others, and thus the virtue only provides bonuses to someone who has it.
This would be as @Nithyn indicated, that Potent Spells are one and done. Having a potent version then lets you use casting tools to provide bonuses to the spell as usual but the casting tools aren't set and can evolve over time to get bonuses up to your Magic Theory.
This means Potent Spells exist however it begs the question whether said spells should be usable by others.
One reason I dislike Option 2 is it seems unspecified whether, for instance, Spell Mastery should be transferable to being used with an equivalent Potent Spell. If not then this is another reason why Potent Magic fails in comparison with other options and ends up being so rarely taken and used in play.
For a great deal more discussion on the topic, including people who disagree with me, the thread I mentioned is here:
I am curious what the consensus is regarding Potent Magic as a Hermetic Virtue. The requirements to specifically design spells for/with it, and then making the casting props necessary for casting those spells at all, just seems to make it so burdensome to use in play that the virtue sees very little action in games. I was struck by the comparison with Potent Sorcery, an obviously similar concept, and how it simply provided the relevant bonuses whenever powers are used within its theme and appr…
- Option 1 - Remove Potent Spells
The problem I see with this is that Potent Magic would become reasonably stronger than virtues such as Cyclic Magic or Special Circumstances.
And from a game design perspective, I don’t think the game needs another "free" way to give spells a higher casting bonus (you already get the +3/+6, you’d be getting your MT on top of that). Between virtues, talismans, mastery, vis expenditure and others, we have a lot of options already. Potent Magic as is allows the same benefit (adding MT), but requiring some degree of work. It’s not a bad virtue if you don’t want to invent potent spells. It's just better if you take the time to do so.
Option 2 - Potent Spells Are Generic
Not much of a fan of this one either.
If we are looking at changing Potent Magic, I’d rather have it integrated into hermetic magic (becoming a free virtue, essentially) than expanding it’s benefits. Of course, this would have it’s own challenges for implementing.
My A plan would be to do nothing at all to the virtue, but if you decide otherwise I can accept it.
The problem I see with this is that Potent Magic would become reasonably stronger than virtues such as Cyclic Magic or Special Circumstances.
I confess ... I largely see these virtues as already very sub-par choices mechanically speaking. Sometimes I look at them wishing they weren't, but then move on.
Largely what I see Potent Magic as trying to compete with (to be a valid alternative to) is a Magical Focus. And that is where I see it failing in comparison.
The difference between the two (my perception) is that Magical Focus arguably takes more work to get sizable bonuses (you need both relevant Arts to any given spell higher to get higher Focus bonuses from the doubling effect), but also adds to lab totals and not just to spell casting. Potent Magic adds mostly only to spell casting with smaller bonuses to lab totals.
The thing that really messes with this comparison is the potent spells (for lots of previously discussed reasons), which end up making Potent Magic a noncompetitive choice. Which is why it rarely is selected. Even more so when you factor in other people being able to learn Potent Spells without the virtue at all.
Part of the appeal of Option 1 to me is that it is at once both a cleaner/simpler rule that makes the virtue more comparable to a Magical Focus while also removing the flaws & complications of Potent Spells ... and not allowing the benefits of their use without the virtue.
That said ... this is hardly a game breaking issue.
I am back under a heavy-ish workload just now. I'll be trying to give everything some review and action likely this weekend, but for now I have a limited capacity gentlemen.
Starting to play catchup today gentlemen. Let me know if I miss anything and/or you have particular interests/concerns.
I'm still here. Just need a little longer. The last three weeks have included 2 significant illnesses, 2 minor surgeries, and mostly 12-hour work days. It's been a lot crazier than normal.
We figured you were around mate, no worries! And I'm so sorry to hear that, hopefully everyone feels better soon.
Hoping you recover soon, callen. ![]()
I'm emerging. Crazy work schedule is subsiding, stitches are out, illnesses are in the past. I've got to ramp up to catch up on thing, but I'm back.
Glad to see you back and doing better. Best wishes.