I think this argument is pretty unassailable.
If magic is permanent then it stops in an instant.
No one would argue that I can't carve my summoned block of marble so no one can argue that someone given new personality traits can't have new experiences that alter their outlook on life.
I think the only stopper on something like this would be True Love or something else that makes essential nature come into play. Even then only for that circumstance. I can't make you hate you True Love I can make you really like Backgammon.
on the other hand if it has a duration of say month then it could not be diminished during that month- so loyalty magus with duration month and target of boundary could be quite potent...
The Jerbiton chapter has a section called 'Created Emotional Bias' on page 66 of HoH:S that might be what you are looking for. The Heart of the Lion spell in the Flambeau section on page 37 may also be relevant.
Why are people still thinking Circle can work on Cr rituals? Magic ends when the circle is broken...no reason this statement wouldn't apply to instant, "permanent" effects. If you don;t want the magic to end, don't use a circle.
With a momentary spell the magic ends more or less as soon as the spell is cast (within a few seconds in any case). There's no magic left to be dispelled when the circle is broken at a later time.
I might have missed that it has already been mentioned here, but RAS (rules as suggested) in Lion&Lily indicate that Momentary Rituals cannot permanently imbue personality traits, since Anacreon the Ex Misc beggar king magus uses a Year Ritual for this purpose. Yes, it might just be because he's an Ex Misc and doesn't know any better...
Year is better than permanent in that case. A permanent personality trait can be changed, a year long one should just stay at +5 or what ever (clause 1 is solid but if clause 2 is false then he would still want to reapply the spell periodically).
Or like you said, he's just dumb. Not everything every canon NPC does is an optimal application of magic.
And these have hardly budged despite great efforts on my part to change, and deep consequences for not doing so. Of course, I'll grant that my 'great efforts' might not be so great after all, given the Slothful +6 at the top.... which circles back to my point.
I'd also note that in Normandy, all those extra pawns per year are really expensive.
(But yeah, I'll agree that Anacreon isn't all that efficient; a Moon version of the spell would not be a ritual, and he could cast that on Individuals pretty much at-will. That's one reason I wrote RAS rather than RAW.)
I haven't dealt with them much but I assume that if I were all of the sudden magically forced to be a moon landing truther or something my experience and surrounding personality would push that new trait back into line over time. Much faster than my conscious effort to follow through with my new years resolution of not spending all day surfing online forums.
But here's the other thing: Having a +6 personality trait of loyal in continuous effect is not at all the same thing as a ReMe spell that compels loyalty. I can have that trait and then, as a fluke, act contrary to that trait, yet still retain the trait. That's similar to the way I might (maybe) resist a donut, or rouse myself to do something that needs doing, without affecting my personality traits.
So a spell that keeps the traits high for a year isn't very valuable here. Again, it could be that Anacreon is a silly Ex Misc (or that his Tytalus masters gave him the spell so that he'd waste his vis). Or, it could be that AM books outside of core cannot really be treated as authoritative, even though they are canon. But I am thinking that whoever wrote Anacreon believed that a Momentary version of the ritual wouldn't work.
They are authoritative. But how a given magus handles a situation can't be taken as the best possible way magic can do it. The authors aren't infallible and if they are then they can still make characters that don't act optimally.
Actually I'm thinking of both of them, since they work exactly the same way for this purpose. You cast the ritual and the "permanent" effect begins. The target decides to leave the circle, 10 seconds or ten years after...and the effect ends. This is how both the target and duration work. The wishful thinking that has led so many of you down a rabbit hole to start making easy rituals using rings has you ignoring the rules as written.
No reason someone can't houserule this, but as written, you can clearly not get anything useful out of ring Cr rituals.
No, they don't. With Ring it ends with leaving the circle or the circle breaking. But with Circle that only ends the effect if the effect has not already ended. With a Momentary spell, the effect has already ended, and so there is nothing to end when leaving/breaking the circle.
So the spell ends immediately. The boost is there. The circle has nothing more to end because it's already ended. With Ring it would be ongoing and then lost. Big difference.
Maybe more of the misunderstanding is with Momentary:
You can see "the magic is gone in a moment." The thing is now real. Your better Strength (or whatever) lasts as long as your strength normally lasts, which would be until aging decreases it. As you can see, the Momentary Creo Ritual spell ending doesn't mean the boost (or healing) it provides ends.
Just like you can't give someone with the Blind flaw their sight back permanently, you can also not give someone a permanent +9 to heal checks. Their essential nature only lets them go so far. +3 on the other hand mirrors existing virtues a person can naturally have so i would let that slide.
Again? This is a totally new argument being addressed. I think you missed something. mjprogue is claiming that using T: Circle for a D: Momentary Creo ritual undoes the no longer magical effects of the Creo ritual when the target leaves the circle or the circle is broken. For example, you are standing in a circle and have a CrCo healing spell at T: Circle, D: Momentary heal you using Vis as normal. The spell ends right away due to D: Momentary, but the effects of the healing ritual "will endure long after the spell itself finishes..." "The magic is gone in a moment..." So the magic has ended entirely, and your wounds are healed and perfectly natural and non-magical. Then you hang out a week where you are. According to mjprogue, a week later when you walk out of the circle your wounds reappear because leaving the circle ends the non-magical effects of an already ended magical effect.
Following the same line of reasoning, if you cast a T: Circle, D: Momentary Perdo spell on things in the circle to disintegrate them, they would reform when the circle gets broken. Do we all play that way?
What about if you use non-ritual Creo that leaves a non-magical effect? mjprogue, what would you say about using CrHe at T: Circle, D: Ring to make sure plants grow really well (the first level-1 CrHe guideline in the core book)? When you harvest the crops, would you get a maximum amount of high quality crops, or would the resulting crops be no different than if harvested without having used the spell?
What you mean by semantics is what is actually written in the rules, of course. I'm not doing any great word play. I'm just presenting what is actually written.
Why? For example, would you be OK with a CrCo healing ritual that instead of T: Circle uses T: Room with a big room to heal hundreds of people at once? How about a CrCo healing ritual that instead of T: Circle uses T: Room to heal everyone inside a battlefield tent? Are these similar ways of healing large numbers of people without having to use T: Group also in no way intended?
Oh, the circle thing wasn't interesting, he's wrong, circle can clearly be used with other durations. I already had an opinion and there wasn't an actual argument presented other than he didn't like it, so I'm keeping my opinion.
To add to the argument Circle is basically a way to use a skill check to increase the size of the target and put it inherently in the spell, it is basically safe to target an individual with it and gradually gets more dangerous as you try to include more people, seems pretty balanced.
Comparatively it is basically the target version of the concentration duration (same basic system).
I'd argue doing a Creo ritual to make grain or something doesn't make sense that way (because of the way Creo targets when actually creating things vs. the way circle designates a target) but that wasn't ever what we were talking about.
Your last line of the post called back to the OP, in the few pages that followed the argument I was making was reiterated about 10 times. Momentary +9 to recovery rolls is simply not a valid spell for anyone who isn't the off spring of wolverine. That is what I was talking about.
When using a permanent (or even temporary) Creo spell to create something the target is always what is being created- individual or group. A ring target doesn't link to duration so breaking the ring doesn't end the effect- which brings up some interesting possibilities for wards... however I would think a ReVi ward with duration month and target ring would create a ring shaped "wall" of protection rather than continuing to protect the people who were in it, while a momentary ritual of CrCo to raise attributes would affect those in teh circle at the time of the casting...