Sustained Spells and Target: Circle

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I am trying to create magic circles that sustain spells cast within it. Here's what I've drawn up:

Circle of the Demanding Spell Sustained
T: Circle, D: Ring, R: Touch

This spell is allows any number of spells up to the fourth magnitude (lvl 20) that is cast immediately after it to be sustained by this spell until the ring is broken. The target of the spell cannot leave the circle and the effect, similarly cannot leave the circle. Once it does, it is no longer sustained and immediately fades.

base 15, +1 touch, +2 ring, ReVi 30

The guidelines say that to sustain a spell another magus casts is (spell level + 5 magnitudes)/2, so (15 + 25)/2 = 20. Also, i included the "any number of spells" since the guidelines for target: circle state that the spell effects any number of things within a circle at the time the spell is cast. Similar to how Target: Room effects any number of things within a room when cast.

thoughts?

2

Two things:

  1. I don't have the guidelines handy but I think you can only fill an effect with lesser effects (up to that level). Not sure though.

  2. Where is the effect to keep the "target" from leaving the circle? The circle is the target so anyone else should be able to move back and forth unless it had a ward-like effect... The effect is trapped in the circle but a regular human would need a Corpus req etc.

As I mentioned, not sure about the guideline, so maybe your base lvl takes that into account.

3

  1. the guideline i'm using is: "sustain or suppress a spell cast by another with level less than half the (level + 5 magnitudes) of the Vim Spell [although I believe the Errata states that they meant "less than or equal to"]

  2. The effect to keep the effect from leaving a circle is build into Duration: Ring - the spell fails when either the ring is broken or when the target moves out of the ring. So if the target spell moves out of the ring, the sustaining spell ceases.

4

oh i see what you mean... yes, there's nothing magically holding the spell effect there, or the target. It's meant to denote that if the target leaves the ring, the spell effect drops and the target spell is no longer sustained.

5

Other way around although it's slightly semantic, the Target is the Circle. Therefore, anything else (people/animal/object/etc) can move in and out unless the actual spell sustained prohibits it in some fashion. The spell would effect them while within the Circle so I think your original intention is valid.

6

I'm fairly certain the circle would sustain only one (1) spell per casting - though ofcourse you can recast it repeatedly, using the same circle.

7

Then what's the difference between Target Individual and Target Circle here? Target circle usually can effect anything or anyone within a circle, the caveat being the spell's fragility due to the circle easily being able to be damaged or broken.

8

In Fourth Edition there is a spell like that.

Rune of Protection
ReVim Gen
R: Per/Touch, D: Special, T: Ind, Ritual
With this ritual a rune is marked on the target, which acts as a ring for the purposes of the Ring duration. Those spells cast on the marked target that normally have a duration of Ring stay in effect as long as the rune is undisturbed. Such spells may be dispelled upon the caster's command, or when the rune created with this ritual is ruined or marred. Moving the target ruins the rune. Only one spell of Ring duration can be maintained on the target at one time. This ritual only affects spells of equal or lower level.

There is also a ReVi spell with T: Bound that affect every spell cast within the boundary.

9

Sustain means Concentration, I think.

10

Erm - not really, not by any dictionary I've seen.

(If you mean that the "target" spells must be of Concentration Duration - I don't think so. Any Duration greater than Momentary - and perhaps even that, altho' I myself wouldn't let that one go by. The spell is "sustained" - doesn't matter how long it was going to last, as long as it was going to last some duration longer than "snap".)

The word "sustain" is used in the ReVi Guidelines, and (more or less) means to "keep from failing/lapsing". The canon example is Maintain the Demanding Spell - which does use Concentration - but that's only one possible approach.

Btr, a spell w/ Target:Circle "affects everything within a ring drawn by the magus at the time of casting" - so no limit on the number of Targets involved - and with this ReVi effect, Targets = "spells".

So the only question is whether the spell(s) to be sustained are "within the ring" or not. I would say that, to meet this requirement with as few questions as possible, spells must meet all of: 1) must have been cast there, not from outside the ring/circle, b) must have a Range that does not extend beyond the circle/ring, and iii) must not create an effect which otherwise moves outside the ring/circle. (If only some of these are met, it might still work - ysmv etc. - but if you can meet all 3, it's less arguable - by the rules as written.)

(Note that, with some ring/circle effects, if anything relevant leaves the circle the circle is "broken" - in others, the circle's effect merely ends for that one traveling target.)

So, looks kosher btr. However, my own "cheese-dar" alarms are ringing loud in my gut, and I don't think many SG's would be happy where this particular effect might lead... :confused:

(Note also that 4th ed Guidelines are not nearly so tightly defined as 5th ed - really not useful except for inspiration, to then be re-built using pure 5th ed Guidelines and definitions.)

11

It looks kosher to me.

I'd be tempted to make it of the variation of 'anything leaving breaks the circle' to minimise the cheesy flavour.

That said, it's mainly going to see use as a sustainer for spells in areas where the fragility isn't an issue - magic lamps in the library, etc. I'd also have them randomly go out as the rings get broken due to the maid dusting in the wrong place, a mouse or cockroach or spider walking across the ring, etc.

In short, useful for sustaining something(s) for up to a day - with longer durations depending on the location and liklihood of something breaking the circle.

The main cheese factor I can see with this is stacking up a bunch of size +1 CrIg spells of diameter duration and having a circle of suppressing. Cast fifteen-odd of your CrIg blasty spell, cast the circle and leave it as a surprise for the next person to break it.

(NB: size +1 because the CrIg spell can't be cast at the intended victim, so we're instead going with 'big bada-boom!' and hoping the victim is standing inside where the fire will be)

12

Light of the Hidden Phoenix is a recurring spell IMS

Light of the Hidden Phoenix (or another cheesy name we made up on the spot) CrIg20
R: touch D: Ring T: Individual
Creates a light as bright as a cloudy day coming out of a circle. Generally there is a cosmetic effect of the light coming out of a fire on the tip of a torch (where the circle is inscribed), but that is just for the looks of it.
(b4, +1 touch, +2 ring)

This, water control (running water for the kitchen) and heat control are the 3 basic spells in our covenant-building pack. Then come the dwelling-building spells (generally MuTe and MuHe), and the "improve either your money supply or your ability to work the enviroment to get resources out of it", but those are the first ones.

Cheers,
Xavi

13

According to the dictionary; no.
In this particular context; yes.

14

A circle spell is sustained as long as the circle is not broken. No concentration involved at all.
A sun duration spell lasts (is sustained) until the sun sets/rises. No concentration involved at all.
Idem for diameter.

Sustained and concentration are not necessarily the same.

My shelf sustains my books, and I guarantee that she doesn't think. She is not warped enough. yet.

15

nonono! The other way around!
It sustains only D: Conc spells (as per Maintaining the Demanding Spell).
The Ring certainly does not need concentration to be maintaned!

Sorry for not making things clear.

16

Where do you think you are getting this?! :confused:

The Guidelines clearly say "Sustain a spell", not "Sustain a Spell that has D:Conc".

Any Duration can be sustained in this manner. (Whether or not "any" includes "Momentary" is up to the SG/Troupe - always room for interpretation and Houserules.)

Maintain the Demanding Spell chose that one target for that one example - nothing in the Guidelines says a similar effect couldn't sustain other Durations.

The Guidelines define the Spells, not the other way around.

17

I'm not "getting this" anywhere really.
I'm trying to explain what I meant above, and what I'm fairly certain others meant.
I'm also pointing out the only example we have of this guideline being used.

I personally believe that case is what was meant, but agree that it is not what was written.

For other changes of duration, I would personally refer my fellow players (and now you) to the MuVi guidelines.

This may or may not be house ruling, but I find little solid argument that any other interpretation is more valid.

18

Ah - it certainly sounded like you were referring to the way the rules work, not was merely suggested as one interpretation.

Why look to MuVi for what is clearly a ReVi effect?

19

That's ok too. I was just wondering.

20

My apologies, I was merely confirming what I thought (and still think?) another poster had stated.

But that is not clear.

Would you conceed there is a difference between sustaining a spell, and extending it?

The only spells that need to be sustained are those of duration Concentration.
And should you wish to extend the duration of a spell, you should refer to MuVi, as you are changing a parameter of said spell, exactly as per Wizard's Reach, save only that you are affecting duration rather than range.

On this we agree fully.