I did not see the original post of JL's here. I thought I posted something about this spell design issue before once or twice, but that may have been my imagination.
At any rate, the solution is a good deal more straightforward than what you're proposing here, given the new version of Baroque Peasant Hut. Since V has a ReTe spell which affects stone, we can just make Burrowfingers a larger dirt-affecting spell (the +1 stone is replaced with an additional +1 size, total +2 size, affects 1000 cubic paces of dirt).
Now we need to double-check Baroque Peasant Hut, which is a ReTe 25 "craft stone or earth" spell:
Base 3, +1 Touch, +1 Part, +3 Structure, +2 size
Okay, that's clearly wrong, since Part and Structure are both targets, and we need to dive into Rego Craft Magic Rules. Covenants, pg 31, says it's ReTe 2 to shape and form dirt, as if a craftsman had worked it.
Base 2, + 1 Part, +1 Conc, +1 to affect stone or glass, +1 complexity (affects many Terram types), +3 size*
= possibly, there should be additional levels of complexity to represent the fine detail work it is capable of, reducing the Size affected per round.
Gah. That's two spells to vet now, although Burrowfingers is a really straightforward typo to fix. I hadn't realized the combat potential of the ReTe Craft spell until my girlfriend pointed it out just as the combat thread started.
The original post is in the Lost Boys's thread....
Anywho. I'm not sure what you're doing. I'm focused on Burrowfingers, it's a PeTe spell that would be used for tunneling. You can't use a ReTe spell for tunneling, as there aren't typically component pieces to manipulate. So going back to the Burrowfingers. I said:
If you change Burrowfingers to a dirt destroying spell, it will not be useful in this particular instance, as Thera is the caldera of an ancient volcano. Not going to find too much dirt to burrow through...
If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that I find a Lvl 10 spell to drop in order to bump Burrowfingers up to a Lvl 30 spell which can burrow through stone as well as earth?
Glancing through my spells, I have a Watching Ward Lvl 10 which I could drop to do this.
Rego craft magics require materials upon which to cast. In this case, the requirement is quarried and cut stone which can be assembled into a hut. You can't manufacture this without having the requisite materials.
So, let's go through the components, you have control or move rock in a slightly unnatural fashion (Base 3) I'd say it's Base 4, control or move rock in a very unnatural fashion. Having stones assemble themselves into a house. +1 touch, that's fine. +3 structure is wrong though. It's not a structure that you're affecting, you're assembling one. It is a Group of stones. A group has a mass of 10 standard individuals. A group +1 100 and a group +2 1000. How many stones are necessary? I dunno. Let's go with group +1. We'll ignore the size, because the size of the individual elements can be presumed to be a stone no greater than 1 cubic pace in size, and is likely smaller.
So, I still get to ReTe 25: Base 4, +1 Touch, D:Mom, +2 Group (of 100 individual stones)
But the killer is finesse. How long does it take to build a stone house?
I'd say a season. I'd say it's between easy and average for a stonemason to do this. We'll go with easy for this run through. So, the necessary finesse roll is 6+3+6=15. Anything short of that means a dangerous house.
Correct. I'm fine with that substitution. I also don't have a problem with this spell affecting lesser material, but I'll limit the volume affected to the amount that would normally be affected by stone. Does that seem fair? For example, you intend to build a tunnel through mixed material, your spell will obliterate anything that is rock or dirt within that area of effect. And don't forget it becomes a touch spell.
This is reasonable (and something I would have suggested anyway).
I was going to suggest this removed the need to fix Baroque Peasant Hut, but we still need to determine if she can use a spell to block passages.
So, the problem with Group is that the original concept is to create architecture using the earth at her feet, similar to the "Unyielding Earth" spell which turns loose earth into hard-packed earth. So, target should be Part, not Group, because it is targeting a section of ground. Unless you'd be willing to say that it's Group, and I can target EITHER a pile of rubble, or a Part of the ground at my feet?
I also, in the original design concept, had dealt with the "amount of time" issue by making the spell Concentration, rather than Mom. As a side benefit, a Conc/Part spell could undo the building back into ground, as well as build it in the first place.
So, given the original intention, the questions become:
Group or Part?
How would a concentration-based Rego Craft spell work?
I had originally suggested:
(I forgot to add +1 Touch to that, so took a point out of size for the Touch)
You countered with Base 3 + 1 affect stone, +1 Touch, D:Mom, +2 Group
So, how about Base 3 + 1 affect stone, +1 Touch + 1 Part, +1 Conc, +1 to affect stone or glass, +1 complexity (affects many Terram types) = 25. I can manipulate a base-individual sized Part per round (1 cubic pace of stone), and have to maintain the spell long enough to affect the appropriate amount of material. If I lose concentration, then I have to cast again to continue the work, making a new Finesse roll.
If you're feeling generous, you could drop the +1 complexity and let me affect +1 size ?
Alternately, we could just go with a dirt-only version for now, which lets her turn part of the earth into architecture in a Touch/Mom, and agree that it counts as a Similar Spell for future versions involving Group, Stone/Group, larger sizes, etc. It wouldn't be useful in the combat situation approaching us, but would be appropriate to the original design concept.
OR we can just go back to a Lvl 25 version of the CrTe ritual spell, which she can fuel with Imbued with Terram vis. Which would be simple, though pretty deeply out-of-concept for her at this point.
JL, your math is completely wrong. You're applying a linear relationship to a three dimensional operation.
puts on her math tutor hat
1 cubic pace is an area described as 1pace by 1pace by 1pace. So one cubic pace, expressed as feet, is 3feet by 3feet by 3feet, which is 27 cubic feet. Picture it like a rubix cube: every edge of the whole cube is a pace long, and each colored block is a cubic foot. One cube (a cubic pace) made up of three layers of nine cubic blocks (cubic feet).
So 10 cubic paces (size +1) is an area whose dimensions are 30x30x30 feet, or 27,000 cubic feet.
Well, if that's true, and it's been far too long since I've done geometry, but it isn't JL that's screwed that math up, it's the game designers with their stupid pace again. They want the area to increase by a factor of 10 each time. For instance, by your math, the spell design for CtMTower is way off as well.
How about this logic?
Pit of Gaping Earth is (Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 Part, +1 Size,) is a 6pace diameter x9 pace deep pit, more or less. Converting this to stone adds +1 magnitude, and reduces the volume by a factor of 10 (Base individual goes from 10 cubic pace to 1 cubic pace). Adding +1 size returns that factor of 10, which brings up back to a 6 pace diameter x 9 pace deep pit, this time in earth OR stone. That's PeTe25.
puts on Ars tutor hat
Actually, I am applying it correctly, Arya.
The +1 size is a linear progression, x10. A tenfold increase. By your own math, you're doing a thousand fold increase in size (10^3), which is size +3
The insert on page 113 of the MRB: "INCREASING SIZE: Multiply size by ten for each magnitude added to the spell"
Let's examine a canon spell, shall we? Conuring the Mystic Tower. Creates a tower 100 feet tall (80 feet above and 20 feet below). The walls are one foot thick, and it's 30 feet in diameter from exterior to exterior. The volume of a cylinder is πr^2h. The empty cylinder is π14.5^2*100=66,018.5 cu.ft. The full 30 foot diameter is 70,650, leaving us with 4,631 cu.ft. Converting cu. ft. to cubic paces (yards) is 171 cubic paces. Doesn't work there, either. Hmmm. But which is closer to the intention of increasing size. Or if you want to presume that the spell makes 70,650 cu. ft. of stone, that's 2,616 cu. yd. Size +4, as I interpret it 10x10x10x10=10,000, which is between size +3 and size +4. The volume of Conjuring the Mystic Tower isn't all of stone, but it does cover the entire volume of the cylinder.
This is kinda messy, I'd thought the spell was working stone for some reason. I think it needs to be stone, because dirt homes weren't common to Europe during that period, were they? I dunno. The only ones i'm familiar with are the ones on the US plains built by homesteaders. Besides, Wilhelm would take convincing to live in a dirt home, I think.
So, let's stick with stone for this example
Base 4, control or move stone in a very unnatural fashion,
+1 touch, fine
+1 Conc, fine
+1 affect stone or glass isn't necessary it's included in Base 4 (3+1)
+1 complexity, not necessary, it can affect lesser materials dirt/sand/clay with the same restriction as I'd suggested for Burrowfingers.
+1 Part, I don't think works, if you're constructing it from a single block of stone by carefully using PeTe to chisel away rock, I can see that. With Rego, doesn't work. It assembles items as a craftsman would So A group of a ~100 stones seems reasonable
So I'm still at Base 4, R:Touch (+1), D:Conc (+1), Group (+3, of 100 items), 25th level still.
I need some convincing for the dirt house. I don't see it as a reasonable spell as I indicated.
Dude. You're applying linear arithmetic to three-dimensional space, which does. not. work. 10 cubic paces is NOT 30 cubic feet. The average coffin is 84"x28"x23", which is just over 31 cu ft., and the idea that you'd need a size modifier for something the size of a coffin is patently absurd.
By your logic, JL, one cubic foot = 12 cubic inches, but you know very well that this is wrong.
1 linear foot = 12 linear inches.
1 square foot = 144 square inches.
1 cubic foot = 1,728 cubic inches.
Even if you're going to say size +1 is 10paces x 1pace x 1pace, that'd still be 30' x 3' x 3', which is 270 cu ft.
The problem with being an ST is that NTs rule the world, and are so wrong, they don't even realize it, even when you explain why. So, seriously. Play with some legos or something until you get it.
If the base volume affected is 1 cubic pace, and you want the volume of Size +1 to be against a linear factor of 10 (despite the fact that 10 doesn't have a round cubic root and is therefore unwieldy), you'd end up basically increasing your linear factor of approximately 2.15. So if Size +0 is 1 cubic pace (that's 27 cubic feet, since you seem to be having trouble keeping up), and you want Size +1 to be a volume of 270 cubic feet, you're looking at a linear increase of going from 3' per edge to just under 6.5' per side.
You know, this is just too much like the ludicrous "5000 concentration rolls" a couple weeks ago. I am dead freaking serious about looking at a damned Rubix cube, because your "intuitive thinking" doesn't apply here, and is easily, demonstrably wrong.
I've debated how to answer your posts. I think I'm done debating. I'm laying it out. I've made a few posts and then deleted them, because, well, they weren't very nice. This one may not be very nice, but I think I'm done trying too hard to be nice.
I don't appreciate you harping on the one time where I made an admittedly egregious misinterpretation. I never enforced it, I brought it up, and I asked to discuss it, and was willing to abide by a consensus of the troupe. Your extent of discussion was to ridicule my interpretation. You weren't even the subject of it. It's fair to comment on it, to make a reasonable argument and discuss it. Instead you call it risible, fine, your choice. Doesn't really help us come to a consensus, which is what i'm interested in doing.
When I did subject you to a quite reasonable ruling interpretation of rolling a stress die for your Leap of Homecoming, you decried my "arbitrary rulings", never mind your complete misunderstanding of what I was asking for, and why it was necessary. I don't make arbitrary decisions, despite what you think. I voice an interpretation as I see it and I invite comments. I don't invite ridicule. And when I ask for something, such as in the instance mentioned here, I want to see a rules based interpretation of why your view is the correct view. You could not or did not provide that. The extent of it was, after I had to fully explain myself, even after trying to get you to present a cogent reason why you shouldn't have to make a stress roll was that you'd forgotten that this incarnation of your character could barely cast the spell. And you never acknowledged that what I asked for was entirely reasonable or appropriate.
Finally, in this instance of math, you're quite simply incorrect, mainly in the math. The Ars guideline is quite clear, increase in size by 10. So, if we can agree that a cubic pace is 27 cubic feet, then +1 size is 270 cubic feet (10 cubic paces) and +2 size is 2,700 cubic feet (100 cubic paces) and +3 size is 27,000 cubic feet (1,000 cubic paces)
I would prefer that future discussions about rules or even simple math like this not devolve into calling arguments risible, or suggestions that I need to go play with legos until I get it. I get it alright. Do you get it? Seriously look it up (what I'm saying in my third point above) if you don't believe me. Wait, I'll do you one better and look it up for you. This of course presumes that we can agree that 1 pace is roughly equivalent to 1 yard. Can we do that, at least?
Awesome.
Although doing it with Rego isn't probably the best choice: tunelling takes time, so you're up against insane amounts of finesse. Why didn't you keep it a PeTe spell? It would have been fine. Or am I missing something?
About the Baroque Peasant Hut, what is it supposed to do?
As I remembered, it was a lower-level version of Conjure the Mystic Tower. Simple, efficient, sturdy. And now, you want to do it as ReTe?
Well, it probably would work fine (I'm not sure if pure stone building exist or if there are wood support), but then again, due to the time it takes to build this, the finesse roll is probably waaaaay out there. Are you sure you wanna go that way?
In response to Johnatan, I think you could take existing earth/stone and "cut it" to build your house (the spell is specialized enough on the one hand to allow this flexibility on the other), but it would only serve to increase the finesse roll :-/
Watching Ward, being a ritual, is minimum lvl 20
Well, I don't like it much, since it seems to go at least partly against some spirit of the rules (the spells are usually relatively specialised, like "Obliteration of the Metallic Barrier"), but, in that case, it is easier (and which I don't like.
Note that this implies that a ward or warning vs metal also protects against stone and earth (Which I don't like, and don't want for my character!!).
Tell the truth, I'd prefer, for the same 30 levels, 2 burrowfinger spells:
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 Part, +1 Size, +1 Stone) for stone
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 Part) for earth.
And think about the finesse: Your original PeTe design is maybe better.
I really don't think it works that way for finesse and Rego Craft magic purposes (your Concentration idea).
BUT
You're giving me an idea .
What you can make is a
Base 3 + 1 affect stone, +1 Touch + 1 Part => lvl 10 spell to carve a brick from a stone block (or the earth, since using Part). This is kinda easy, the finesse roll might be manageable.
Take it with the lvl 10 "telekinesis" ReTe spell (Unseen porter, IIRC). Maybe with Group target?
Use both to shape and assemble bricks, using finesse to create the bricks and your mundane craft skill to put them in the right place with your Unseen Muscles.
How to put it? You just create and move magically stone bricks. But you put them in the right place through your mundane skill.
Problem: this requires 1 finesse roll/brick, so you'll fail sometimes
Solution: This happens to mundane craftsmen, too, and you have the time. Discard the useless bricks. No problem
For 05 levels (Base 3? +1 Touch + 1 Part), you can have the same thing to create earth bricks. That makes 3 spells, for 25 levels.
Advantage: as you create bricks and assemble, you can assemble them into different shapes, like a wall. You gain in flexibility, and it makes viscaria more of the crafter, less the one-trick pony. And if she later invents a high enough level ReTe spell, she can even fling them like a catapult!
Problem: while way quicker than mundane craft, building with this takes time. Not a season, but probably 1 or more day, depending on the building. After all, you're placing stone after stone.
JL, Amul, what do you think of it?
Err... No.
1 cubic pace = 27 cubic feet.
10 cubic paces = 10 times that, so 10 times 1 cube of 27 cubic feet. So 270 cubic feet in total.
27 000 cubic feet = 1000 * 27 cubic feet = 1000 times a cube of 27cf.
This discussion has consumed more time than I have to spare right now, and will probably delay my departure for the next leg of my trip by about 6 hours. (No one's fault but my own, as I'm the one who got lured in by the math).
I leave this in Fixer's capable hands.
What I wanted was:
Burrowfingers - a version of Pit of the Gaping Earth that affects a reasonable quantity of stone, and dirt. If that's two different spells, that's fine. It seems we have those 10 levels of Watching Ward to re-assign anyway.
Baroque Peasant Hut has suffered from concept drift. It was originally supposed to be a smaller CrTe ritual of Conjure the Mystic Tower. It was shifted over to a Rego Craft spell when the Bibracte version of Viscaria was emphasizing finesse. It doesn't matter and is causing us to Not Have Fun. Viscaria can just spont the ReTe effects to block tunnels.
I would like us to stop talking math and get back to the game. This is not the time for spell design.
Sorry, you are right.
Your ideas often spark up more ideas in me, and your idea of building things over time, combined with the problem of finesse rolls, had me increase the drift
I must say I really got into this idea of viscaria - crafter of stone and earth
The only question I'd like to ask is, assuming JL agrees with my ideas, is this:
Would you have viscaria build magical houses in a hour (CrTe), or craft buildings in days (ReTe).
It's a trade-of, quickness vs diversity.
I don't believe the difference between Creo and Rego magics is a function of time. The difference is more nuanced than that. Rego craft magics require component materials and strong finesse,(perhaps other specialized knowledge can be substituted). Creo magics require none of that, but they are temporary or require Vis to make permanent. The trade off here is that structures which expire become significantly higher level spells than rituals that create the item permanently.
Amul, I think discussing spell design is fun. It can be tedious and it can take time, too. I do understand that.
Viscaria can have Burrowfingers as we discussed: a spell that destroys rock and dirt equally, but only at the volumes that would normally be affected for rock. I've noted Fixer's objection, but I'd like something hard and fast that says spell which affect rock can't affect dirt. I don't really see that in the rules or in spells and I think the size restrictions are sufficient. Creativ shapes are allowable but will require high finesse rolls or multiple castings. I'm thinking bringing down sections of the ceiling collapsing tunnels, etc.
For Baroque you need to consider the kind of crafter you want to be. Your imbued with the spirit of terram virtue says go Creo. If your wanting Rego you might want to consider something else, and I'm fine with that.
To do that is an in character issue. The competing plans issue needs to be resolved and someone (not me) make a decision or the group needs to have consensus and move from there. I think it unwise to try climbing an unfamiliar mountain at night with or without Intellego magics.
I presented the plan Apollodorus had. He would prefer that plan, or some variation of it, but is willing to listen to good ideas. If there is consensus from the players on changes to his plan I would interpret that as a good idea. If there isn't consensus he will begin moving forward with or without magi (by a certain date to be determined).
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