This is kinda messy, I'd thought the spell was working stone for some reason. I think it needs to be stone, because dirt homes weren't common to Europe during that period, were they? I dunno. The only ones i'm familiar with are the ones on the US plains built by homesteaders. Besides, Wilhelm would take convincing to live in a dirt home, I think.
So, let's stick with stone for this example
Base 4, control or move stone in a very unnatural fashion,
+1 touch, fine
+1 Conc, fine
+1 affect stone or glass isn't necessary it's included in Base 4 (3+1)
+1 complexity, not necessary, it can affect lesser materials dirt/sand/clay with the same restriction as I'd suggested for Burrowfingers.
+1 Part, I don't think works, if you're constructing it from a single block of stone by carefully using PeTe to chisel away rock, I can see that. With Rego, doesn't work. It assembles items as a craftsman would So A group of a ~100 stones seems reasonable
So I'm still at Base 4, R:Touch (+1), D:Conc (+1), Group (+3, of 100 items), 25th level still.
I need some convincing for the dirt house. I don't see it as a reasonable spell as I indicated.
Dude. You're applying linear arithmetic to three-dimensional space, which does. not. work. 10 cubic paces is NOT 30 cubic feet. The average coffin is 84"x28"x23", which is just over 31 cu ft., and the idea that you'd need a size modifier for something the size of a coffin is patently absurd.
By your logic, JL, one cubic foot = 12 cubic inches, but you know very well that this is wrong.
1 linear foot = 12 linear inches.
1 square foot = 144 square inches.
1 cubic foot = 1,728 cubic inches.
Even if you're going to say size +1 is 10paces x 1pace x 1pace, that'd still be 30' x 3' x 3', which is 270 cu ft.
The problem with being an ST is that NTs rule the world, and are so wrong, they don't even realize it, even when you explain why. So, seriously. Play with some legos or something until you get it.
If the base volume affected is 1 cubic pace, and you want the volume of Size +1 to be against a linear factor of 10 (despite the fact that 10 doesn't have a round cubic root and is therefore unwieldy), you'd end up basically increasing your linear factor of approximately 2.15. So if Size +0 is 1 cubic pace (that's 27 cubic feet, since you seem to be having trouble keeping up), and you want Size +1 to be a volume of 270 cubic feet, you're looking at a linear increase of going from 3' per edge to just under 6.5' per side.
You know, this is just too much like the ludicrous "5000 concentration rolls" a couple weeks ago. I am dead freaking serious about looking at a damned Rubix cube, because your "intuitive thinking" doesn't apply here, and is easily, demonstrably wrong.
I've debated how to answer your posts. I think I'm done debating. I'm laying it out. I've made a few posts and then deleted them, because, well, they weren't very nice. This one may not be very nice, but I think I'm done trying too hard to be nice.
I don't appreciate you harping on the one time where I made an admittedly egregious misinterpretation. I never enforced it, I brought it up, and I asked to discuss it, and was willing to abide by a consensus of the troupe. Your extent of discussion was to ridicule my interpretation. You weren't even the subject of it. It's fair to comment on it, to make a reasonable argument and discuss it. Instead you call it risible, fine, your choice. Doesn't really help us come to a consensus, which is what i'm interested in doing.
When I did subject you to a quite reasonable ruling interpretation of rolling a stress die for your Leap of Homecoming, you decried my "arbitrary rulings", never mind your complete misunderstanding of what I was asking for, and why it was necessary. I don't make arbitrary decisions, despite what you think. I voice an interpretation as I see it and I invite comments. I don't invite ridicule. And when I ask for something, such as in the instance mentioned here, I want to see a rules based interpretation of why your view is the correct view. You could not or did not provide that. The extent of it was, after I had to fully explain myself, even after trying to get you to present a cogent reason why you shouldn't have to make a stress roll was that you'd forgotten that this incarnation of your character could barely cast the spell. And you never acknowledged that what I asked for was entirely reasonable or appropriate.
Finally, in this instance of math, you're quite simply incorrect, mainly in the math. The Ars guideline is quite clear, increase in size by 10. So, if we can agree that a cubic pace is 27 cubic feet, then +1 size is 270 cubic feet (10 cubic paces) and +2 size is 2,700 cubic feet (100 cubic paces) and +3 size is 27,000 cubic feet (1,000 cubic paces)
I would prefer that future discussions about rules or even simple math like this not devolve into calling arguments risible, or suggestions that I need to go play with legos until I get it. I get it alright. Do you get it? Seriously look it up (what I'm saying in my third point above) if you don't believe me. Wait, I'll do you one better and look it up for you. This of course presumes that we can agree that 1 pace is roughly equivalent to 1 yard. Can we do that, at least?
Awesome.
Although doing it with Rego isn't probably the best choice: tunelling takes time, so you're up against insane amounts of finesse. Why didn't you keep it a PeTe spell? It would have been fine. Or am I missing something?
About the Baroque Peasant Hut, what is it supposed to do?
As I remembered, it was a lower-level version of Conjure the Mystic Tower. Simple, efficient, sturdy. And now, you want to do it as ReTe?
Well, it probably would work fine (I'm not sure if pure stone building exist or if there are wood support), but then again, due to the time it takes to build this, the finesse roll is probably waaaaay out there. Are you sure you wanna go that way?
In response to Johnatan, I think you could take existing earth/stone and "cut it" to build your house (the spell is specialized enough on the one hand to allow this flexibility on the other), but it would only serve to increase the finesse roll :-/
Watching Ward, being a ritual, is minimum lvl 20
Well, I don't like it much, since it seems to go at least partly against some spirit of the rules (the spells are usually relatively specialised, like "Obliteration of the Metallic Barrier"), but, in that case, it is easier (and which I don't like.
Note that this implies that a ward or warning vs metal also protects against stone and earth (Which I don't like, and don't want for my character!!).
Tell the truth, I'd prefer, for the same 30 levels, 2 burrowfinger spells:
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 Part, +1 Size, +1 Stone) for stone
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 Part) for earth.
And think about the finesse: Your original PeTe design is maybe better.
I really don't think it works that way for finesse and Rego Craft magic purposes (your Concentration idea).
BUT
You're giving me an idea .
What you can make is a
Base 3 + 1 affect stone, +1 Touch + 1 Part => lvl 10 spell to carve a brick from a stone block (or the earth, since using Part). This is kinda easy, the finesse roll might be manageable.
Take it with the lvl 10 "telekinesis" ReTe spell (Unseen porter, IIRC). Maybe with Group target?
Use both to shape and assemble bricks, using finesse to create the bricks and your mundane craft skill to put them in the right place with your Unseen Muscles.
How to put it? You just create and move magically stone bricks. But you put them in the right place through your mundane skill.
Problem: this requires 1 finesse roll/brick, so you'll fail sometimes
Solution: This happens to mundane craftsmen, too, and you have the time. Discard the useless bricks. No problem
For 05 levels (Base 3? +1 Touch + 1 Part), you can have the same thing to create earth bricks. That makes 3 spells, for 25 levels.
Advantage: as you create bricks and assemble, you can assemble them into different shapes, like a wall. You gain in flexibility, and it makes viscaria more of the crafter, less the one-trick pony. And if she later invents a high enough level ReTe spell, she can even fling them like a catapult!
Problem: while way quicker than mundane craft, building with this takes time. Not a season, but probably 1 or more day, depending on the building. After all, you're placing stone after stone.
JL, Amul, what do you think of it?
Err... No.
1 cubic pace = 27 cubic feet.
10 cubic paces = 10 times that, so 10 times 1 cube of 27 cubic feet. So 270 cubic feet in total.
27 000 cubic feet = 1000 * 27 cubic feet = 1000 times a cube of 27cf.
This discussion has consumed more time than I have to spare right now, and will probably delay my departure for the next leg of my trip by about 6 hours. (No one's fault but my own, as I'm the one who got lured in by the math).
I leave this in Fixer's capable hands.
What I wanted was:
Burrowfingers - a version of Pit of the Gaping Earth that affects a reasonable quantity of stone, and dirt. If that's two different spells, that's fine. It seems we have those 10 levels of Watching Ward to re-assign anyway.
Baroque Peasant Hut has suffered from concept drift. It was originally supposed to be a smaller CrTe ritual of Conjure the Mystic Tower. It was shifted over to a Rego Craft spell when the Bibracte version of Viscaria was emphasizing finesse. It doesn't matter and is causing us to Not Have Fun. Viscaria can just spont the ReTe effects to block tunnels.
I would like us to stop talking math and get back to the game. This is not the time for spell design.
Sorry, you are right.
Your ideas often spark up more ideas in me, and your idea of building things over time, combined with the problem of finesse rolls, had me increase the drift
I must say I really got into this idea of viscaria - crafter of stone and earth
The only question I'd like to ask is, assuming JL agrees with my ideas, is this:
Would you have viscaria build magical houses in a hour (CrTe), or craft buildings in days (ReTe).
It's a trade-of, quickness vs diversity.
I don't believe the difference between Creo and Rego magics is a function of time. The difference is more nuanced than that. Rego craft magics require component materials and strong finesse,(perhaps other specialized knowledge can be substituted). Creo magics require none of that, but they are temporary or require Vis to make permanent. The trade off here is that structures which expire become significantly higher level spells than rituals that create the item permanently.
Amul, I think discussing spell design is fun. It can be tedious and it can take time, too. I do understand that.
Viscaria can have Burrowfingers as we discussed: a spell that destroys rock and dirt equally, but only at the volumes that would normally be affected for rock. I've noted Fixer's objection, but I'd like something hard and fast that says spell which affect rock can't affect dirt. I don't really see that in the rules or in spells and I think the size restrictions are sufficient. Creativ shapes are allowable but will require high finesse rolls or multiple castings. I'm thinking bringing down sections of the ceiling collapsing tunnels, etc.
For Baroque you need to consider the kind of crafter you want to be. Your imbued with the spirit of terram virtue says go Creo. If your wanting Rego you might want to consider something else, and I'm fine with that.
To do that is an in character issue. The competing plans issue needs to be resolved and someone (not me) make a decision or the group needs to have consensus and move from there. I think it unwise to try climbing an unfamiliar mountain at night with or without Intellego magics.
I presented the plan Apollodorus had. He would prefer that plan, or some variation of it, but is willing to listen to good ideas. If there is consensus from the players on changes to his plan I would interpret that as a good idea. If there isn't consensus he will begin moving forward with or without magi (by a certain date to be determined).
Starting tomorrow I'll be away from my home until next Tuesday, but will likely be able to check and post, just with less frequency and might not have all my books.
Oh, of course, I was just making shortcuts on this:
Building a House through a Creo ritual (1h) vs crafting a lot of stones and assembling them one by one into the desired shape (days)
How to put it? From faster to slower, he has:
One round:
Rego craft "build house" spell. Requires insane finesse, but is permanent
Creo "build house" spell with duration. Works just fine, thanks, but isn't permanent
About 1 hour:
Creo "build house" ritual. Can't fail, requires vis, but is permanent.
Days:
Rego craft "build brick" spell + putting them one on the other. Requires low finesse (and failures aren't much of an issue) and mundane skill roll, take days to build, but is permanent and not limited in size or to a "house".
Original viscaria was Option #3. Current version is #1.
He just needs to chose, depending on what he wants to do
Well, the additional factor here is that ArM has traditionally been a tool of self-amusement for me. I've owned the game for nearly two decades, and this is the first time I'm playing it with anyone past Char Gen. So this is the part I spent the most time discussing : stats and spell design.
I'd rather have diversity than quickness, but the ritual/imbued with vis thing needs to be in there as well.
Let's do the version of Burrowfingers which has been discussed, the ritual version of BPH, and then use the Tribunal as an excuse for her to find more lab texts for the Rego Craft versions and additional rituals. That seems the best compromise.
On the road. Can someone post the new version of Burrowfingers that we've agreed on?
One thing you can do is not do all of it in one spell. Have a spell that takes a big rock and make it into cut rocks. Then use a spell to fashion those into a house. Or Muto the rock into clay. then rego it into a dwelling and let the muto expire. Have helpers who will use timbers to start the roof on your dwelling
Burrowfingers looks cool to make a rabbit hole for a mage to sleep in if he is out in the world.
Burrowfingers
PeTe20 Touch, Mom, Part
Creates up to a 100 cubic pace (2,700 cubic feet) space in dirt or stone, starting at a point of origin touched by the caster. Opening is cubed shape, but can be modified with finesse rolls.
Base 4, Destroy stone, +1 Touch, +1 part +2 size
Checking my math, cubic pace =3x3x3=27 cubic feet, +1 size is 270 cubic feet +2 size is 2,700 cubic feet. The default configuration (doesn't have to be cube shaped) can be designed into the spell, and adjusted with finesse rolls. If it's cube shaped, it would be a cube with l,w,h just under 14 feet. A design for creating a tunnel might create 6 foot ceilings 10 feet wide, and allow a tunnel section 45 feet long. This spell should probably be combined with Eyes of the Treacherous Terrain to determine how safe the span is. If Voice is important you can trade out the size, but that means you're only making 4.5 foot sections of tunnel at a time.
Life has conspired against me for a bit. I'm paying attention to posts, but have little time to post much in return. That will be the case until probably Thursday or Friday, although if I'm lucky it might be as early as tomorrow evening. I just figured my lengthy silence needed an explanation, geven my high posting frequency.
In the Lost Boys threads there are a few grogs that need bravery/loyalty checks of some sort, I think qcipher's, unless I've missed them. There's a possible plan to burn the room that needs to be discussed, it almost necessitates Viscaria burrowing an exit for you guys.
Sorry it took so long to get this up, Arya (I finished Azure Bonds a week or so ago), but here, have a review: good book, I still like it.
And I just noticed - you're friends with Kate Novak? Lucky. I don't have any published friends (that I know of), and I haven't had anything published of mine yet (except for a collaborative poem with about six other people from one of my LJ communities in a magazine about a year and a half ago, but I don't think that quite counts).
Did we ever decide about RPing letters without JL?
Viscaria is supposed to be shifting her correspondence from Ra'am to someone else. Theraphosa wrote a letter out to a Quaesitor's familiar....though it seems there may be some fallout for that.
I think generating a Bound Correspondences between two familiars on OoHLore, CoH, or Intrigue would be, in a word, delightful.
In retrospect, I should have had my eyes checked before I named the magi from Insula Canaria. I just found out that Gàidhlig for "elk" is lon, not ion. A lower-case el looks suspiciously like a capitol aye. Ah well. And it's masculine, not feminine, so I need to check to see how to feminize the name, too. Dang, it's annoying being anal sometimes.
Although I did find a Scots Gaelic dictionary from like 1848 that has it as Ion and not Lon. So. meh. close enough.
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