Table talk (Bibracte)

I wouldnt' say I'm back. I'm now loading a uhaul with trash to take to the dump. Also, picked up our new floor and the cabinets are coming in tomrorrow.

Oh, and our daughter has a stomach bug. It's been a heckuva weekend.

Okay, I think I'm as done as I'm going to long as nobody looks too closely :smiley:

Not sure where to put it on the wiki, though.

Anyway, for Alexei: I'm thinking maybe we could put a canton on the coat of arms ,which would probably need to be yellow or white (or possibly a pattern called a "fur"). The reason is that in heraldry, you're not supposed to have colour-on-colour or metal-on-metal (metals being Or and argent, colours being the rest). Having a canton would likely mean that the artist (whoever's sewing Alexei's tabard, painting his shield, what have you) might want to rearrange the stars if you want to keep the same number, and just put the canton on the top left corner, then the charge you want on the canton.

In fact, if we wanted, each magi could have a similar variation. The staff and hourglass for Alexei, a cauldron for Fiona, a wolf for Fieltarn, a giant question mark for Apollodorus :laughing:. What have you.

@Jonathan: :open_mouth: Good luck with everything, I hope problems will stop piling on. I'm impressed by all you have to face

Good grief. I hope things start looking up for you, JL.

None of this is really bad luck. It's all stuff that had been in the planning stages. Some of it got blown up early because I had a server fail at work. I'd already ordered and even had the replacement. I transitioned us over to the new one this weekend. It's pushed some of my workload around at work. I have a couple of other projects which must be done by Wednesday.

As far as the kitchen stuff, it was going to happen in June/July. Instead it's happening now. It's a timing issue, nothing more. The only bad luck thing is daughter getting sick (my wife has it today, I can't be far behind). I had expected to be busier earlier in this process than I was. Instead I'm busier a month into it, now that we're actually getting stuff in.

Welcome to home ownership, JL. Why does it break? Because you own it.

The light in my closet stopped working while I was fixing the closet rod today. One of those simple pull-chain types. The chain got stuck halfway down. Why? Cuz it's mine.

Regarding the coat of arms, given that I have a copy of Photoshop, would you like me to clean up that jpg?

I like the notion of adding the three serpents under the mont to represent the OoH.

Please. And I like the notion of charging the mont with the three serpents, too...I just didn't feel like doing it myself (I'd probably screw it up, get ticked off and give up on it).

Agree. This was probably discussed as a dirt-spell, and upgraded to stone as an after-thought.

There's also the fact, discussed about Alexei's spells, that a spell to affect stone may very well very unable to affect lower materials (which as the advantage of avoiding such issues). At the very least, it should follow the harder guidelines.

I did not see the original post of JL's here. I thought I posted something about this spell design issue before once or twice, but that may have been my imagination.

At any rate, the solution is a good deal more straightforward than what you're proposing here, given the new version of Baroque Peasant Hut. Since V has a ReTe spell which affects stone, we can just make Burrowfingers a larger dirt-affecting spell (the +1 stone is replaced with an additional +1 size, total +2 size, affects 1000 cubic paces of dirt).

Now we need to double-check Baroque Peasant Hut, which is a ReTe 25 "craft stone or earth" spell:

Base 3, +1 Touch, +1 Part, +3 Structure, +2 size

Okay, that's clearly wrong, since Part and Structure are both targets, and we need to dive into Rego Craft Magic Rules. Covenants, pg 31, says it's ReTe 2 to shape and form dirt, as if a craftsman had worked it.

Base 2, + 1 Part, +1 Conc, +1 to affect stone or glass, +1 complexity (affects many Terram types), +3 size*

  • = possibly, there should be additional levels of complexity to represent the fine detail work it is capable of, reducing the Size affected per round.

Gah. That's two spells to vet now, although Burrowfingers is a really straightforward typo to fix. I hadn't realized the combat potential of the ReTe Craft spell until my girlfriend pointed it out just as the combat thread started.

The original post is in the Lost Boys's thread....

Anywho. I'm not sure what you're doing. I'm focused on Burrowfingers, it's a PeTe spell that would be used for tunneling. You can't use a ReTe spell for tunneling, as there aren't typically component pieces to manipulate. So going back to the Burrowfingers. I said:

I don't think there's any problem with that.

Next up a discussion of Baroque Peasant hut...

If you change Burrowfingers to a dirt destroying spell, it will not be useful in this particular instance, as Thera is the caldera of an ancient volcano. Not going to find too much dirt to burrow through...

so it would still need to be stone, then.

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that I find a Lvl 10 spell to drop in order to bump Burrowfingers up to a Lvl 30 spell which can burrow through stone as well as earth?

Glancing through my spells, I have a Watching Ward Lvl 10 which I could drop to do this.

Baroque Peastant Hut

Rego craft magics require materials upon which to cast. In this case, the requirement is quarried and cut stone which can be assembled into a hut. You can't manufacture this without having the requisite materials.
So, let's go through the components, you have control or move rock in a slightly unnatural fashion (Base 3) I'd say it's Base 4, control or move rock in a very unnatural fashion. Having stones assemble themselves into a house. +1 touch, that's fine. +3 structure is wrong though. It's not a structure that you're affecting, you're assembling one. It is a Group of stones. A group has a mass of 10 standard individuals. A group +1 100 and a group +2 1000. How many stones are necessary? I dunno. Let's go with group +1. We'll ignore the size, because the size of the individual elements can be presumed to be a stone no greater than 1 cubic pace in size, and is likely smaller.

So, I still get to ReTe 25: Base 4, +1 Touch, D:Mom, +2 Group (of 100 individual stones)

But the killer is finesse. How long does it take to build a stone house?
I'd say a season. I'd say it's between easy and average for a stonemason to do this. We'll go with easy for this run through. So, the necessary finesse roll is 6+3+6=15. Anything short of that means a dangerous house.

Correct. I'm fine with that substitution. I also don't have a problem with this spell affecting lesser material, but I'll limit the volume affected to the amount that would normally be affected by stone. Does that seem fair? For example, you intend to build a tunnel through mixed material, your spell will obliterate anything that is rock or dirt within that area of effect. And don't forget it becomes a touch spell.

This is reasonable (and something I would have suggested anyway).

I was going to suggest this removed the need to fix Baroque Peasant Hut, but we still need to determine if she can use a spell to block passages.

So, the problem with Group is that the original concept is to create architecture using the earth at her feet, similar to the "Unyielding Earth" spell which turns loose earth into hard-packed earth. So, target should be Part, not Group, because it is targeting a section of ground. Unless you'd be willing to say that it's Group, and I can target EITHER a pile of rubble, or a Part of the ground at my feet?

I also, in the original design concept, had dealt with the "amount of time" issue by making the spell Concentration, rather than Mom. As a side benefit, a Conc/Part spell could undo the building back into ground, as well as build it in the first place.

So, given the original intention, the questions become:

  1. Group or Part?
  2. How would a concentration-based Rego Craft spell work?

I had originally suggested:

(I forgot to add +1 Touch to that, so took a point out of size for the Touch)

You countered with Base 3 + 1 affect stone, +1 Touch, D:Mom, +2 Group

So, how about Base 3 + 1 affect stone, +1 Touch + 1 Part, +1 Conc, +1 to affect stone or glass, +1 complexity (affects many Terram types) = 25. I can manipulate a base-individual sized Part per round (1 cubic pace of stone), and have to maintain the spell long enough to affect the appropriate amount of material. If I lose concentration, then I have to cast again to continue the work, making a new Finesse roll.

If you're feeling generous, you could drop the +1 complexity and let me affect +1 size ?

Alternately, we could just go with a dirt-only version for now, which lets her turn part of the earth into architecture in a Touch/Mom, and agree that it counts as a Similar Spell for future versions involving Group, Stone/Group, larger sizes, etc. It wouldn't be useful in the combat situation approaching us, but would be appropriate to the original design concept.

OR we can just go back to a Lvl 25 version of the CrTe ritual spell, which she can fuel with Imbued with Terram vis. Which would be simple, though pretty deeply out-of-concept for her at this point.

JL, your math is completely wrong. You're applying a linear relationship to a three dimensional operation.

puts on her math tutor hat

1 cubic pace is an area described as 1pace by 1pace by 1pace. So one cubic pace, expressed as feet, is 3feet by 3feet by 3feet, which is 27 cubic feet. Picture it like a rubix cube: every edge of the whole cube is a pace long, and each colored block is a cubic foot. One cube (a cubic pace) made up of three layers of nine cubic blocks (cubic feet).

So 10 cubic paces (size +1) is an area whose dimensions are 30x30x30 feet, or 27,000 cubic feet.

Well, if that's true, and it's been far too long since I've done geometry, but it isn't JL that's screwed that math up, it's the game designers with their stupid pace again. They want the area to increase by a factor of 10 each time. For instance, by your math, the spell design for CtMTower is way off as well.

How about this logic?

Pit of Gaping Earth is (Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 Part, +1 Size,) is a 6pace diameter x9 pace deep pit, more or less. Converting this to stone adds +1 magnitude, and reduces the volume by a factor of 10 (Base individual goes from 10 cubic pace to 1 cubic pace). Adding +1 size returns that factor of 10, which brings up back to a 6 pace diameter x 9 pace deep pit, this time in earth OR stone. That's PeTe25.

puts on Ars tutor hat
Actually, I am applying it correctly, Arya.
The +1 size is a linear progression, x10. A tenfold increase. By your own math, you're doing a thousand fold increase in size (10^3), which is size +3
The insert on page 113 of the MRB: "INCREASING SIZE: Multiply size by ten for each magnitude added to the spell"

Let's examine a canon spell, shall we? Conuring the Mystic Tower. Creates a tower 100 feet tall (80 feet above and 20 feet below). The walls are one foot thick, and it's 30 feet in diameter from exterior to exterior. The volume of a cylinder is πr^2h. The empty cylinder is π14.5^2*100=66,018.5 cu.ft. The full 30 foot diameter is 70,650, leaving us with 4,631 cu.ft. Converting cu. ft. to cubic paces (yards) is 171 cubic paces. Doesn't work there, either. Hmmm. But which is closer to the intention of increasing size. Or if you want to presume that the spell makes 70,650 cu. ft. of stone, that's 2,616 cu. yd. Size +4, as I interpret it 10x10x10x10=10,000, which is between size +3 and size +4. The volume of Conjuring the Mystic Tower isn't all of stone, but it does cover the entire volume of the cylinder.