Table Talk - Development

Wait, I am incorrect. Good Teacher adds +5 for direct teaching, +3 for writing.

Initiation is in Hedge Magic, under the folk witches. Mystagogue is the leader of the fire brothers in Mallorca (a Gifted firecaster). Initation grants Animal Ken 1 after a season living as an animal. It also gives the flaw incomprehensible. Basically an initiation grants a minor virtue at a cost of a minor flaw or a major virtue at the cost of a major flaw.

I will post a roleplayed text detailing the process. No problem about that. It might be... weird :mrgreen:

The animal companuion is not very useful for Arnau, since he cannot engage in most lab activities of the folk witches (he lacks the virtues) but I find it to be a cool element. A bad mannered large hunting dog to pursue Cidito around the covenant is always A Good Thing (TM) in my book. It is more the cool factor of the image of the dog fighting with Arnau than the usefulness of him that appeals to me. And Cool Factor always trumps Power for me :slight_smile:

Weird is okay, though I prefer Strange.
What is the Mystagogues name? Might I have some design influence on this character?

I have to dig his name once I get home. IIRC it was Pere (Something). he is one of the 3 lieutenants of the Phoenix (Master) of the Flame Brothers and one of the candidates to succeed him. he is one of the 4 Gifted Flame Brothers (the other 3 are another Flamen like him, a young apprentice and the Master of the Company).

My idea is of a guy that looks around 70 and walks with difficulty due to that, even if he is actually younger (55 or so). Time has not been kind with him (age quickly, even if he uses potions to extend his life). He is beaten by the sun and has half of his face scarred. I imagined him as not being the most tractable guy around but he need to be a shrewd politician since he is the one dealing with the magnates of Aragon and in charge of the Flame Brother operations in the Western mediterranean as a whole since the rest of the company moved to the Levant after the fall of Mallorca. he used to be a fighter, but has abandoned front line duty for good. He has always been more of a leader than a fighter anyway, and is smarter playing the contracts and influence game. Maybe he is more skilled at potions and curses than casting flames? He is a veteran both of Iberian and the Levant, and has a penchant for shinny things. Like gold.

His familiar can be anything from a mean dog, to a raven to a small firedrake (like the ones in Game of thrones). Since he is Gifted he has all the virtues of the Cult of the brothers and can act as a mystagogue for them: Firecasting, Hex and Mythic Herbalism (the Major virtues), and Premonitions, 2nd Sight, Flight and Animal Ken as the minor virtues.

I think the problem lies more in the "Here are my faithful grogs. Now, an unknown NPC just gives them all kinds of superpowers" feeling :wink:

And I dunno if it's me, but I have some... difficulty with the scope and, more importantly, organisation of the flame brothers as you're shaping them, in that they're looking more and more like a Rival Tradition. It's one thing to have a thousand coven of poor, mostly ungifted, folk witches scattered over ME (+ who knows how many solitary ones). It's another to have a wealthy, organised tradition of what? 100? trained combat hedgies, some of them gifted*, with easy access to more ressources, openly acting as court magicians.
I mean, don't get me wrong, they are great, but that's the problem: They are maybe a little too great :-/

  • Which should hamper their organisation!

Great idea!

Superpowers being them being lame and lacking one eye you mean? "Power" (second sight and being able of limited flight) does not come cheap. I could have created the grogs following the normal rules ("Hey they just happen to have second sight! How cool is that!?") but using the folk witch rules makes them more interesting IMO since it links their powers to something and not just character creation fiat. I tried to give each character a different and clear personality and abilities. There is a thread to comment on them if you want to :wink: SO far I see no complaints there... They are FAR from maxed out in any case and they would be even less so if I had not used the vibria mercenary template.

The Flame Brothers are not on the level of a rival tradition (even if I think most rival traditions do not live up to that name, but that is another issue). If you can't cope with a CrIg combo casting total of +20 well, you are not much of a hermetic magician, I would say, and this is the most dangerous artillery the Flame Brothers have. There is a clear mismatch of perception of the power level of the OoH of this saga and the supernatural environment of the saga if you think this about the Flame Brothers. The Flame Brothers are like (non-gadgeted up) Agents of SHIELD working with Superman and Spiderman. The power level is certainly not the same, even if they are comic characters. They are on par with the vibria company, not even coming close to the Andorra guard on an individual basis. As an organization they are just one of the dozens of mercenary companies being developed at the time. Mercenary companies were quite popular for 3 or 4 centuries and quite large. I just made them large and more realistic than the 20-ish strong companies that appear in the rulebook, but they are no different than other organizations in that sense. Arnau does not have access to this kind of resources since they belong to the higher levels of the organization. It is just fluff material.

The brothers are good (good, not amazing) against mundanes without supernatural support, but nobody said that their opponents are devoid of supernatural assistance. In fact I would think the contrary. They are a witch coven through and through. I am using them as background. If you found the folk witches of Hedge Magic to be dangerous I see an issue but I found them more cute than anything... Dangerous against mundanes for sure, but give them a supernatural rival and they will pause. Probably to throw a javelin through his neck, but they will pause. :laughing:

The Flame brothers are a background element of Arnau. Is he using them? Yeah, because he is part of the wider organization, but they are certainly not operating on the same power level as the OoH. They are certainly not interacting with the saga more than the current ruler of Aleppo, for example. they are there, but so is Florence and I do not see people claiming that their fleet is ubber :wink: It is just there and does not affect the characters at all.

Arnau is a member of a witch coven. He can be initiated further by a higher ranking witch. I made that a Gifted witch because it looks better IMO, but he could be an ungifted witch all the same. The rules are 100% RAW and the gift comes with a price. Do you really think that a dog that cannot fight as part of a group (at character creation) is a game changer? :open_mouth: I want to develop the ability for the dog's cool factor since he is useless to Arnau for anything else...

None can rival Xavi in seniority save for myself and Fixer.
And I see what the problem is, and I say to Fixer not to worry about it. The issue is a precedent that could lead to potential abuse. Arnau and the Flame Brothers do not break the system. I have closely analyzed them. The mechanical approach being used, if used by someone else, could break things. And a good player not trying to break things might give that appearance because I do not know them or their intentions as well as I know Xavi.
Which essentially means this. I am not worried about what you could do, only about what you will actually do. I trust Xavi. I also wanna warn Xavi that everything is fair game for questioning, and questioning causes no harm.

And remember, Arnau is Xavi's main character, even though only a companion. I like that the mystagogue is magus level and NPC. It allows me the opportunity to pull strings from the outside and introduce twists and turns into the workings of things. For example, once Xavi told me of the process and the gifted mystagogue, I started developing an idea for an envelope of secret orders :smiling_imp: . Innocent stuff; find out this name, fins where x is located, make sure magus x is successful, etceteras). Basically, a cool version of the mundane associates of the Legion of Mithras (I hate Mithras, my style is Mercurian, so an alternative paramagica paramilitary appeals to me).

Small change to the plan.

Arnau will try to link himself with an ugly and mean boar as a familiar. A boar will be seen with disgust by Muslims so it is an improvement over the previous idea. It has the added advantage that it can be part of a combat group with Arnau, and the grogs (substituting for one of the grogs), and this is just plain AWESOME :smiley: A group of grogs, a lame firecaster AND A BOAR acting as a group is a great image. Unfortunately this will not be possible for the first adventure (city of brass) since he will not have trained with the grogs, but as a future feature it is really attractive. When I checked I found that a mastiff has a damage total that is too low to be part of the group. I have to increase the damage of the boar and make him act as vanguard for sure. I see a steel helmet with spikes for that... (now I am running ahead of myself here...)


I'm standing here; you make the move. You make the move. It's your move...
[Charges]

Plan B would be to get a PIG as a familiar, but then it would not be as awesome as a companion.

Go for the Boar. They are deadly and fierce and they kill people :smiling_imp:
Does a boar count as pork? Would a Muslim (or a Jew) be offended at a pet pig or boar? I am not sure. I will ask my boss French about that (Frenchy is an American Muslim, so he may have a relaxed additude similar to what second and third generation (etc) Iberian Mooriscos would have. Just like, eating dog is also unclean, but pet dogs are fine, so I imagine a pet pig is fine.
Also, keep in mind that the pontifex of the covenant, Carmen Perez of Flambeau, is of Jewish descent. Not that she will care, her father baptizd her Catholic and she eats whatever. She just has a strong sympathy and curiosity in her mothers culture. In days past, we had a sizable Jewish influence in our labor & talent pool. Not so much anymore, but there are a few. In fact, that is why I fugured we should let Adan in. We have Christians, Jews, Muslims, magi and maybe pagans, and who knows what else in the past. We are tolerant of diversity, more so under Carmen than ever before, and a heretic should be no exception.

For Jews eating pork is unclean, for Muslims anything to do with pigs is unclean- how much so depends on the sect, but there are tales of a British general which quelled rebellion in an entire region by burying the bodies of the first group executed under a pig farm. For a better expose on "official" rules of Islam islamqa.info/en/22713 is an interesting site - I am not Muslim and I am aware there is a lot of diversity in understanding these rules, some differentiation is pointed out by the site itself but for roleplaying purposes it should be good enough. But as can be told by the questions alone, some Muslims will feel defiled if a pig even touches them.
Interestingly, the keeping of both pigs and dogs is forbidden, but apparently dogs are actually more unclean than pigs (Guess I learned something today!)

Seems they have quite some issues with these! :open_mouth: Stronger than I thought, really. I guess most Muslims will not feel that bad about it, but will not look at the boar with affection precisely. And this is exactly the point that Arnau wants to make :mrgreen:

Oh, I agree with all this.

Thing is, I like the flame brothers, too. If you'd let their development to me, I can very well see myself make them even more magical and powerful :unamused:
But the more they look like an independant and supernatural task force (which is what I like in them!), the more another voice in me says "do you really think the order would let them get away with this?". It's a suspension of disbelief problem :-/

Very good point, I had forgotten it.

Ooooh! Like it!

Magical or not? Can I stat him?

O_O Wow, quite strange, never heard of it before. It'll be fun to poke at muslim friends with it :smiling_imp:
Very interesting site, anyway. Thanks!

Glad you like it. it came from a main forum thread about familiars and religion a few days ago, and I had to do it :mrgreen:
You mean the boar or the helmet? THe boar will be mundane. Lab total for hedge witch familiars are quite low, so magical critters are out of the question. A Gifted witch could have a small animal with a might of about 12 or so at most, I would say. Arnau is relying in a mundane beast so he can link with it fast. His lab total is just enough to bond with a size 0 mundane mamal after his Animal Ken initiation. He would need to increase his lab total by 6 por 7 points to bind a non mundane weak supernatural familiar, and that is not really worth it. So mean mundane boar for him :slight_smile: If you want to play a little bit with the stats be my guest, but I do not see much need in it.

If you refer to the helmet, I have not given it much thought, since that is a future feature. In winter Arnau will bond with Beauty (WIP name), so he will not have had much idea on equipment and such. If you have any ideas, I would be happy to hear them,b ut consider that it is likely to be a post-city of brass item. If Arnau and Beauty survive the ordeal.

Cheers,
Xavi

Yeah, I meant the boar.
I already had an idea on a "juggernaut" power :frowning: . But yeah, once I find the time, I'll probably do something :smiley:
I'm picturing a wicked large boar with one eye left and a giant scar on the other ^^
I might even manage to sneak in one power or two.

If Arnau does manage to find a Boar with might at a low enough score that he can still bond with it, I do believe that this grants him some magic resistance.

Having completed Antoine, I suppose I should think about producing a Companion and some Grogs, although I might rest a bit first :laughing:.

Does Andorra have a minstrel? I wondered about a companion with Enchanting Music, and considerably more martial skill (I'm thinking of the Bow and/or Rapier kind) than Antoine. Hopefully not too cliché.

Formula for binding a hedge witch familiar is:

Lab total = Int + folk witch MT + Animal Ken + animal size + aura = 10+ Might.

Arnau's MT suck since he is more of a field agent right now. So his lab total is a miserable 2 + 1 + 2 (An Ken 1 + mammals specialization) + 5 (aura) = 10. Exactly the minimum necessary to bind a size 0 mundane creature. Not spectacular, eh? :mrgreen: The supernatural familiars that a folk witch can aspire to have are might 8 cats or might 9 crows. A might 10 dog would be considered quite a feat. Generally folk witches have mundane familiars for this reason.

It's been too long a time since I read HMRE... Can Arnau be helped in the lab?
And... What about a size 05, might 05 boar? :smiling_imp:

Asilano: Great! I'd love for Antoni to have such a dashing friend! :smiley: They could call themselves "the Warriors Two" :laughing:

Actually, isn't Arnau stationed at Sa Dragonera? That would be an aura 3 at the most then, right?

Will have to check about that help in the lab. Familiars certainly help them in the lab. Tonight I will post a more informed answer.

LOL. The size 5 boar could be amazing but alas, I wrote the formula wrong :unamused: If you increase size you need to decrease might. So it should be:

Lab total = Int + folk witch MT + Animal Ken + animal size + Might + aura = 10+

Pity, I liked how you were thinking :mrgreen: