Table Talk - Development

Just a couple things to keep in mind. First, using CrIm means you're magically creating sounds, not 'throwing' your voice to the target. This means you must roll Finesse to make the speech reasonably intelligible. I'm not sure about the difficulty of the roll. The other thing is that this spell will create speech that can be heard normally by people in your target's immediate vicinity. You can avoid this by using 'miniatures', an Imaginem concept described in HoH: Societates. In brief, you change the Target from Individual to Part and create your speech directly in the target's ears, so no one else can hear what you're saying. This concept can also be applied to other sensory organs.

You would hear any sounds created by the target, but nothing in their vicinity. The only way I know of to hear (or see) what's happening around the target is to use Target: Room, which would then only work indoors. This problem irks me greatly. :confused:

You can, but it's difficult. The ReVi spell Maintaining the Demanding Spell will maintain the Concentration spell for you for a Diameter, or you could just invent Diameter duration spells. There's also a caveat somewhere that says you don't need to make Concentration rolls if you're performing the task the spell is designed to perform. In other words, if your Concentration duration spell creates speech, you won't have to roll Concentration just to 'talk' in this fashion. You would have to roll to cast another spell, though.

Correct, you can't learn both in a single season. As for the two-way spell, I've tinkered with that and haven't found a good solution. Vocis also has a couple spells from the Net Wizard's Grimoire that theoretically allow it, but I think the troupe has ruled they shouldn't work as described.

See comments above re: CrIm speech. You can avoid the Finesse requirement by using ReIm, but the spell level will be much higher.

Have I mentioned that I keep getting Antoine and Lucas confused for no reason at all? :slight_smile:

Ok. A plan is forming. My lab total for InIm spell invention is 33, and the covenant has a text for "InIm5 Hear the Distant Voice", which is exactly what I statted above. So I can learn that, then invent a further (33-5)/2 = 14 levels in a season. I propose therefore that I take Spring 1235 to learn or invent:

  • Hear the Distant Voice - InIm5 (Sight, Diam, Ind), from text
  • Prying Eyes and Wagging Ears - InIm 10 (Touch, Conc, Room). As ArM5 Prying Eyes, but for sound as well. FFM should make the uses of this fairly significant - spy on a room I could shout to; or spy on an entire Tavern I'm touching; or monitor a room until sunset.
  • ...and something else. See question after this list!

The InIm guidelines give as Base 1 "Memorise or perfect your memory about an image you have encountered". Anyone know how this works? Do I have to be in the presence of the image, or can I use it to pull minute details of a scene I saw once, but didn't recognise as interesting at the time? What do the Range, Dur, Tgt mean with respect to it? For instance, does the basic model work as Pers, Mom, Ind ("I personally improve my individual memory in a moment"), or does it need to be, say, Sight, Diam, Ind ("For 2 minutes, my individual memory of everything I could see is better")? If the former, what happens if I Flex the range or target - can I make the person I touch remember something clearly, or is it that I get to remember what they saw?

I'll then take Summer 1235 to learn or invent CrIm spells to be determined, including a talking-to counterpart. These could include defence spells - illusory guards! - at Arachne's suggestion and if within my capabilities (my LT is a touch smaller). Fall 1235 is making Solomon's rings, and I can book in Winter 1236 for Carmen's carpet (sorry Carmen, I forgot the lab rules on Form and Technique).

Also, note to self, I have 2xp exposure from Solomon's rings to assign; except that I'm also Waiting For The Ghosts, which may give adventure XP instead.

Finally, Marko - what is the Finesse roll to create intelligible (and variable) speech? Or is it assumed to Just Work because of the +1 magnitude in the description of, say, Phantasm of the Talking Head?

Sorry, won't have time to look at Joshua :frowning:

In Magi of Hermes, they use a Special Target akin to Room +1 (+3 mag) to spy on a room-sized bonus.

When moving one of your senses with ReIm, you target that sense, so if moving your hearing, that's +3 mag too.

Note that the first spell is more limited in range, but allow you to hear in 2 places at once, while the second, while theoretically limitless (You would hear a very big sound miles away, like a volcanic eruption), prevents you from hearing anything that happens around you while your hearing is out there, not unlike Image from the Wizard Torn*

Good question.
IMO, if it was a mentem spell, it'd allow you to pick up a forgotten memory, but would be of a way higher level.

As it is, for an Intellego Imaginem spell, I think it allows you to "get" an image perfectly when you encounter it, ensuring that you'll be able to "see" it whenever you try to recall it. I don't think it'd allow you to recall forgotten details, because it doesn't work on your mind, only on the species, and they're no longer here.
The Range is the range to the target, and the target is what you recall. The duration is a lot more fuzzy, because it may apply to how long you get this "photo", or to how long you "record" things. I'd just stack magnitudes.
For exemple:
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Room: You have perfect recall of a room's contents at the time of casting, for Sun duration
R: Per, D: Moon, T: Hearing, +1 magnitudes for length of record: Allows you to record everything you hear for a Diameter, recalling it for Moon duration

The first spell could not be gifted to someone else, but the second could, giving you the perfect secretary.

Ef for creo spells is, IIRC, usually 6+ (it's in HoH: S I think).
So, with Int +4 and Finesse 2... You can skip entirely on rolling, IMO, save maybe in extreme situations (like under enemy fire), to check for botches

Now, I get an idea of a spell that might be popular among apprentices: Image from the Wizard Porn

Boo, that would put it out of useful range to learn this season.

OTOH - I remembered people mentioning the Net Grimoire. I understand it's not canon, but it does contain:

Net Grimoire does have quite a few interesting spells, but the maths can be a little suspect at times. Or, at least, that's been my observation. I always calculate the level myself before I put the points into it, just to be sure.

Totally agree with PB.

I love the idea behind the spell, but IMO, this wouldn't work because of this: InIm spells usually target the senses. I can perfectly see a spell targeting an image (Intellego Imaginem, after all) in order to get more info on that image, but this... I can't see it working.

OTOH, as a mentem spell with the same R/D/T, this'd be totally fine IMO.

Ok, I'll drop that spell. Shame, but there we go. I'll just have to waste the extra 4 levels I can invent.

As for the subsequent season, that would be a CrIm invention season in order to be able to speak to Isolde (or whoever). LT is 34 (same arts values, but the Forge is +1 Creo). I need to learn, at least, a Sight, Diam, Part (ear) spell to create a miniature of my voice, flexible to AC range. That's Base 1, + 3 Sight, +1 Diam, +1 Part, +1 complex speech, lvl 15. That therefore uses up 30 of my 34 levels, which means this is the only thing I can do this season (which is irritating; one more level and I could have also learnt, say, from the lab text for Relay the Vision of the Magus).

Hmmmmmm. It would probably be in character (and fun! if somewhat risky) to experiment if it would help Antoine reach the spells he can tantalisingly see as being just out of reach. Experimenting gives him +3 in addition to the extra die, so it's quite a significant bonus.

Can I have a ruling, because I've got confused - what would be the lowest effective level (and accompanying R,D,T and actual effect) for an InIm spell carrying the "Memorise or perfect your memory about an image you have encountered" effect?

By my count, our final arrangement involved 73 levels of summae being copied by Andorra. Assuming the agreement happens at the end of 1233, that gives Adan, Nicasi, and Amada two seasons each in 1234 and thereafter to get them copied. Nicasi can copy 12 levels per season and Adama can copy 11. I see it working like this.....

1234 season 1: Nicasi copies On Transmutation (12 levels), Amada copies Riddles of Mars (11 levels), Adan copies Apparitions and Phantasm (14 levels) and starts on Catalogus Plantarum (2 of 18 levels)

1234 season 2: Nicasi copies most of Dominion Over God's Creatures (12 of 15 levels), Amada copies most of Eye of Aggamatto (11 of 13 levels), Adan finishes Catalogus Plantarum (16 levels)

1235 season 1: Nicasi and Amada finish their books, Adan is free to copy/repair other things. Corporeum seems as good a place to start as any.

Based on your numbers for your other covenant, the books they're copying for Andorra should be done around the same time Nicasi and Amada finish. I'll add those new ones to the library page with spring 1235 as their first season of availability.

Is the troupe willing to allow this? I'm a little surprised Fixer was the one who brought it up. I always picture Arachne recoiling in horror every time I mention Magi of Hermes. :smiley:

Can't help you here. I've always ignored that InIm benchmark because I don't understand it.

Which book was that from again? Because it seems to me hat it should have a mentem requisite, and I don't see it on my own list of compiled base effects...(something I did personally from the books I have, not a published article)

Core book! I agree it's a curious guideline...

I've been thinking. In order for the effect to be pure InIm, it would have to simply provide information about the species present somewhere. So, to keep with what appears to be the written intent, how about we say that it means "you are able to perceive all the species (relevant to one sense) that are present in a single scene you are currently able to sense. +1 magnitude per extra sense".

So the idea is that you could use it to determine absolutely everything there is to see (but not hear, without additional mags) about the scene you are looking at. You can see the ants on the ground, and the minute scratches in the surface of the desk, and the writing on the papers on the desk; everything you could see if you had the luxury of infinite time to examine everything in detail - but not more, and your brain still has to filter it (practically, I imagine you'd either say "I cast the spell, looking particularly for signs of blood under the suspect's fingernails"; or you'd have to make a roll later to see if you recalled something that turns out to be significant). Ideally, it would interact favourably with scrying spells, so you could absorb every detail of a scene you can only sense because of another InIm spell.

Does that sound like a reasonable guideline? Is it too strong for a base level 1 effect? And if so, how do R/D/T work? It'd be nice if it was Per/Mom/Ind, indicating "In an instant, the caster gathers all the information", but I would understand if, say, Target or Range had to be the scene you are gathering (so P/M/I would be "in an instant, gather all there is to see about you"...)

It seems to me that the target of this is essentially "the picture in my mind", either copying a real image into your mind or perfecting an image already there. It could certainly be an interesting combination with a memory palace, but really it does seem like it should have mentem as a requisite pretty much every time.

Say... Taste of the Fine Wine
Base 1, personnal +0, diameter +1, taste +0

For Diameter duration, this spell lets you remember perfectly a given taste.

Now that I think about it, one could probably argue that this'd allow you to remember perfectly every taste you experiment while under the spell, for the spell's duration.

:laughing:
IMO, MoH is like the Net's Grimoire: Check, verify, and if it flies...

In this case, non-standard R/D/T are right out from the corebook, and one of the things that, IMO, separate elder mages from their youngsters: They have a lot of custom spells with exotic R/D/Ts. I keep wanting to do an exemple maga, but I have no time.

As far as I can tell, this is perfectly legit, just like, say, a "Reach" range akin to Touch +1 that targets anything you could touch.

IMO, yes and no.

This doesn't enhance your senses, so you wouldn't be able to perceive more than you could otherwise.
BUT if needing to think about the scene, you could picture it in your mind as if it was right there, check it, and notice those scratches you might have forgotten otherwise.

In short, it gives you eidetic memory, linked to 1+ sense, for the spell's duration.

I know you're the rules guru around here, and I'm... not. In any way. But I can't see why you're basing the Target levels for "enhancing my existing mundane senses" off the levels given for "magical senses received through my existing ones". That is, the core book gives no additional levels for seeing (mundanely) at a distance over hearing (mundanely) at a distance; both are InIm affecting one sense. It distinguishes between "seeing" the presence of Vis and "hearing" the presence of Vis - see, for instance, Prying Eye (see at a distance, one sense, base 1) versus Discern Own Illusions (acquire the information "I made that illusion" via your sight; base 1, +4 Sight).

In the "Eidetic memory" case, what are you envisaging R and T being? Personal, Individual would be nice ("it affects me", rather than Foo, Sight "it affects what I can see")...

Don't non-standard R/D/T require a minor breakthrough before they can be used? I realize breakthroughs can be passed around the Order in tractatus, but that's still the kind of thing that would require troupe (or at least SG) permission. I'm not sure how flexible folks are willing to be with characters finding a tractatus on just the kind of breakthrough we're looking for.

I would like to introduce a player I recruited to replace Peregrine.
Praelix is a long time player (since ArM2 or 3), and was looking for a game. Praelix was also the only one with balls enough to criticize Faith & Flame. I respect and admire that :mrgreen:

Hi guys,

I've been invited to join this game by Marko. :smiley:

It was second edition, I think - the German second edition.

I'm not entirely sure, which character I should play. Marko wasn't entirely comfortable with my first intuition, so here are three replacement ideas:

  • a Pralician that's good at being a Pralician (always good to have people who can see the bad guys in hiding) - I've always liked Pralicians
  • a wind(and weather maybe) mage, basically a Flambeau that is not using fire (easily fits in).
  • a tunnel spell mage (bad at ranges voice and sight) - I've always wanted to explore how tunnel spells can be used outside of wizard's war (transportation, communication). Exploring aslightly different way of doing magic.

Oh, I am comfortable with almost anything. Yet I will raise questions about everything. Ice mage is fine, so is weather or any other concept.

Well, since no one seems to care one way or another, I'll try the Pralician. And I'llt ry a male character (because Marko said in a PM, they were harder to pull of for female gamers. Being Pralix, I see that as a challenge!

I want him to lobby for changing of the scrying laws (because he saw her parens get into trouble for scrying).

first concept (I plan to spend most of the xp on skills rather than arts to create a good speaker and a legal expert)
Virtues at gauntlet:
1x minor focus: exotic magic (Pralician Virtue)
1x Comprehend Magic (Pralician Virtue)
1x Gentle Gift
1x improved characteristics (I hate people getting good characteristics by setting strength to -3 without a good reason)
2x Great perception +5 (eagle I)
1x Puissant Comprehend Magic (I can see it all)
1x Piercing Gaze (hysterical magus: "Why are you looking at me like that? You are scrying, aren't you!?")
1x Hermetic Prestige (saved her parens)
1x Self-confident (What else?)

Flaws:
1x Weak magic resistance (Pralician House Flaw)
1xMajor Driven to change the scrying laws (by becoming a quaesitor)
1xminor overconfident
1xmagic animal companion (magic cat - Vergil, the sample character from Semita Errabunda on the Atlas website. I'd like to turn Vergil into a familiar post gauntlet)
1xRigid Magic (no vis can be used for spells, ritual spells impossible)
1xunimaginative Leaner (nor can it be used for learning)
1xSmall frame