Fair Price. I will add a note in the Roll of Seasons, having commissioned it in Winter 1204, so it would be delivered in Winter 1205.
Note that wearing it for extended periods of time will cause Warping to the wearer, under the "Constant Mystical Effects" clause (ArM5 p.168).
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Understood.
So, it seems we are still generally leaning towards Rhine instead of the clearly better Normandy ?
Lets vote! What Tribunal should we join? List your first, second and third choices.
- Normandy
- Rhine
- Alps
My choice is not a statement of which Tribunal I think is better, but about which one I think would be most interesting given the context of this particular saga.
But to be fair, IMO Normandy and Rhine are quite close in rank (each for different reasons).
Note that from a geographical standpoint, the Alps probably would have the strongest claim to the area because it is technocally in the Jura.
But that makes good stories too. 
Im reading about the Normandy Tribunal.
It seems like in Normandy the stories will be more around mundanes and the Dominion. Then also we would have the political stories between covenants.
On the other hand, we are at the east, and the wilderness and magical stories are placed more to the west, so we would be more excluded from those too.
Is it more or less how i'm reading it?
Btw, how do the interactions between covenants from differents Tribunals work? Would i be able to visit and stay in, say, Irencillia if im not part of the Rhine Tribunal?
- Rhine
- Alps
- Normandy
My reading is that stories centered on the covenant will still be dependant on our immediate surroundings.
We are surrounded by the Telsberg and the valley. In terms of Tribunal conflict the closest candidates are Dankmar (Rhine) and Basel and the Tower of Ashes (Greater Alps). The closest hermetic presence in Normandy is Cunfin, more than a week away.
These won't change, but I imagine they will be colored by our choice of Tribunal.
For example, I wouldn't expect our stories to generally involve more dealings with mundanes if we join Normandy. We will interact with the Telsberg and the people of Laimunt, nothing more, nothing less. But I'd expect our dealings with the Telsberg to be examined in a different light depending on our Tribunal (with Normandy being more lax, Greater Alps more strict, and Rhine somewhat in between).
The stories centered on our magi will still be dependant on what the magi chose to do, but might also be colored by the Tribunal. While in Normandy Regulus might be called more often to investigate mundane interference, in Rhine he might need to defend someone accused under the Guardians of the Forest clause, and in the Greater Alps, track down an amaranth dealer (the Alps have a drug problem). But he will also get Varius remains (the roman soldier he met in the caves) back to his hometown, and that is independent of our Tribunal of choice.
I imagine the Tribunal will be of little consequence for Celeste and Alba activities or goals, and for the Tribunal proper they can always chose to attend in Rhine, if nothing else just to trade and mingle with people from Irencillia.
Since regardless of our choice we will be quite isolated from the big players of the Tribunal, I imagine this would be centered more around large scale politics and negotiation of votes.
In Rhine politics will center on the Gilds, or on specific oposing covenants (such as Dankmar X Durenmar, or Durenmar X Fengheld).
In Normandy it will center on relations between covenants, indeed. Since we are rich in vis we might face old and strong covenants opposing us, or fighting to have us under them, and people wanting us to sponsor them in founding new covenants and swearing oaths of fealty to Tugurium (we might decide to stay neutral in all of that). We will also have the hermetic tournament every 7 years, which I personally think would be hard to plan, but also a lot of fun (and we can always share the burden between us all to run it).
The Greater Alps are very isolationist, and from my reading, not very political. They don't usually accept new covenants, so I believe we would face some pushback if we try to join, but after we succeed they should leave us to our devices... or so I hope.
I wouldn't say so. We are likely (but not surely, since Cunfin is relatively close) too far to be meaningfully involved in Arthuriana, for example, but we have plenty of magical stories to explore in the Alps, and the Black Forest is not far away. And we might always be invited for a particular story a bit more distant from Tugurium due to our particular talents or interests. Just as in any other Tribunal, I suppose. For example, regardless of the Tribunal, I'd expect Celeste to eventually become a reference in ghosts.
But well, these are my personal interpretations and expectations.
I don't see why not?
For Rhine in particular I imagine there is a great flux of foreign magi, either Bonisagus/Bjornaer/Merinita visiting their Domus Magna or people wanting to consult Durenmar's Library. But if Alba overstays her welcome in Irencillia I imagine she would be politely invited to leave (or join).
Well, ofc stories inside the covenant area will not change so much with our choosen tribunal, but as soon as we walk away, stories will change a lot.
And i mean, ofc we can go to the Black Forest if we go to the Normandy Tribunal, or viceversa, but if we choose a Tribunal, chances are that we will go more towards that Tribunal to make act of presence at least.
And while to our north we find a lot of wilderness and savagery, at our west we would find stories about noble houses and The Church. So its implied that we will have to deal more with mundanes and the Dominion.
At least, thats what i understood (i didnt read the book in deepness, so maybe i missed something).
And to defend our vis sources. I doubt that covenants from the Alps would doubt to steal from our sources, since technically we are into their territory and the Normandy Tribunal will not protect us since everything outside our area its free game.
After all we would just be a very tiny Normandy bubble inside the Alps.
Also, that 
This one is interesting and potentially fun 
No idea, i'm unable to find enough info about this tribunal 
I know that the book was called The Sanctuary of Ice. Thats all xD
Those are the ones that matter, since we will do the stories together
No idea, just asking a random though that came to me xD
I don't think the selection of the Tribunal will change the nature of the stories being told, but rather they will change the stance of the various covenants take in them. What it will change is where those stories take place.
For example:
- It should be clear that one or more covenant will contest in some way one of your vis sources. Which covenant or magus does that will depend on your choice of Tribunal.
- In the same way, securing support in the Tribunal will be necessary. Which covenants you have to visit to secure that support, as well as the nature of that support, will depend on the Tribunal. What may also change is how many different sources of support you need to secure.
- The Tribunal stories will be significantly different in each Tribunal (politics in the Rhine, the tournament in Normandy, establishing trade relations in the Alps).
One thing that will change for certain is the strength of the ill-will from the Tribunals that is not selected:
- The Rhine may not care too much, because the covenant is located on the other side of Basel.
- Normandy may only mind because one or more of your vis source may be located in territory that they view as theirs (meaning to the west outside of the valley).
- The Alps may be quite angry because they see the Jura Mountains as being part of the Alps, and an encroachment on their isolationist stance.
The last thing that will change is how independent the covenant gets to be:
- In the Rhine, you can easily be a independent covenant, provided you can get support from all the other covenants. If you don't get support from everyone, you may be able to make a deal to be a chapter house with a greater-than-usual independence.
- The situation is similar in Normandy, though you could more easily be an independent covenant -- in theory you only need exclusive acces to one or more sourves of vis (seisin) . But anything beyond a day's round trip would have to either be secured every Tribunal (tropaeum) or be obscure/hard enough to collect that no one else would try to collect them (legacies). As mentioned, you could be completely independent, become a liege to some other covenant, or become a vassal to secure better political support. Being a vassal, for example, might make it much easier to grow your library quickly.
- In the Alps, getting acceptance as a full covenant would be hard, but becoming a chapter house would relatively easy. Note that a chapter house in the Alps has much more freedom than in the Rhine -- it can have its own Charter, control its own resources, and make its own decisions most of the time with little interference from their parent covenant. If we want to adapt things a little, we could even decide that you take the place of the Tower of the Ashes in the Jura (either by deleting it or relocating it somewhere else in the Alps).
Regardless of the Tribunal you select, you will end up having stories involving magi and covenants from all three Tribunals.
Thanks Arthur
I still can't decide between Rhine and Normandy xD
From a gameplay perspective, it seems like Normandy it's the easier and more convenient of both.
So, taking that into account (from an in-game logic)... and going against me, since already had the Dankmar adventure half-ready... i vote:
- Normandy
- Rhine
- Alps
If we assign points to the positions (3 the first, 1 the third), it seems like:
- Rhine and Normandy are tied with 7 points each
- Alps has only 4 points, so it cannot climb to first place already
You choose @Arthur. You can to vote and break that tie, or just stick with the original saga's plan since the points seems to also support that option...
On the other hand we still have time... there is nothing that stops us from testing the waters in Rhine and, if it seems too hard, going to Normandy (albeit maybe we would need to be more discrete to avoid a reputation hit later).
I'm not going to vote, because in the end it doesn't change anything for me. And in the end, it is the characters that do decide.
Clusius is not a strong leader. He'll let the others discuss the issue to death, until such a point as a they reach a common decision. Otherwise he'll just let it drag on and on, which will of course will cause problems. Running stories during which the magi explore each Tribunal is of course fine with me. But at some point the magi must make a decision. Not choosing one (either for now or forever) is a decision too, with its own set of consequences.
Remember that the Order has a Join Or Die clause in the Code. There are no other choices.
I think we can postpone the decision until, say, 1210, and explore our options? Let the stories shape the decision? We would still have from 1210 to 1214 to actually conduct whatever political deals might be required after we make our choice (to gain support/sponsors, to choose our allegiances, etc).
Who knows? Regulus is going to Confluensis soon. If someone decides to run a story about his journey perhaps I will make a blunder big enough that we will have no choice but to join Rhine. XD
Alba accepts the challenge of drag the conversation for as long as it's necessary. She will not want to postpone the decision.
In that case, any particular reasoning for or against a Tribunal? Any deal breaker, any strong desire for a particular kind of story?
In my case, I'd rather have covenant politics than Gild politics. I also feel like the power dynamics in Normandy will be more interesting, even if we don't join it and it remains as a background. We will probably lose a bit of vis, but we are pretty high on vis to begin with, and I think if we play our cards right we wouldn't actually be losing them, but exchanging them for different benefits.
We already have more vis than what we will manage to spend anyway.
That said, it's not like Rhine is unninteresting. I just fail to see any strong positive points (besides Alba's and Celeste's backgrounds, which are perfectly valid reasons to join Rhine, by the way). But, Rhine is perfectly functional for me, both as player and SG.
In principle I like the idea of joining the Alps, and as Arthur said we are technically on Alpine grounds... but I'm not sure it works very well for our cast.
I would also need to think carefully about what and how to run (one can only do so many adventures about exploring the mountains before it becomes old), and even after reading Sanctuary of Ice I have zero grasp on their intra-Tribunal relations.
I'm focusing on my reasons as player/SG, because in the end I can fabricate IC reasons for Regulus to prefer or avoid any of the three Tribunals.
I've never been in a Saga where that was a problem... We will soon need a pretty good amount of Vis just to make our Longevity Rituals
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It's my turn i suppose.
I'm personally divided between Rhine and Normandy. I slightly prefer Rhine from a personal standpoint, but i also see the virtues of Normandy and, from my character perspective, if you say her that its very important to secure a Tribunal and she sees that the Rhine can be hard (and she doesn't see capable to convince anybody to increase the chances) then she would prefer to vote for Normandy since it's already guaranteed.
To me, the tribunal its much more than the politics involved in it.
Yeah, the Rhine has the gilds and internal rivalries. But also represent the raw nature. It's an untamed land filled with primeval powers and mysteries. To me, seems like a much more mystical place, and i find that cool. It also offers us a lot more of safety, since we would secure a lot more our vis sources. Also, Alba fits more into it (even if she doesn't care so much about the gilds... just ask her in-game if you want to know her opinion).
Meanwhile, in Normandy you have a lot more of politics with mundanes (and with them, The Church) and more dynamic rivalries between the covenants. But it also lose all that ambient of ancient powers and mysteries, since the rest of it its just you typical medieval background with knights and princesses xD Yeah, that also makes a lot easier to make stories since we already read a lot of books with a background very similar. And last, we would lose vis, and thats a big con (i will pretend that nobody here said that we have too much vis >_<) to me and for my character too.
For last, i must also add that, appart from the backgrounds of Celeste & Alba attached to the Rhine, Celeste is part of a Gild already. She cannot just cut her connections with Rhine as easy, since she has a responsibility.
So, in-game, Alba tends to see more favorable Normandy because Regulus said that we need a tribunal soon and that one it's already secured. There is no more reason than that... But she is also easy to convince as you all see fit, specially Celeste
And OOC, while i see interesting points in both tribunals and i acknowledge that from a point of view of creating political stories, so Normandy it's better for Regulus, my personal preferencies are more oriented towards the Rhine. And i also cannot also stop seeing that there is not much to do for Alba there (there is somebody that really sees her as a political maga?), and Celeste cannot just cut her relationship with her gild (techinically she can, but that also could be seen as the linden gild trying to extend its influence outside the Rhine, so we would win a lot of "friends" due to it very fast... all while others sees Celeste as a traitor too, so double the fun).
So... i said a lot without saying too much xD As usual in me xD
You turn @Red-Shadow-Claws
I did not say we have too much vis, or that it's a problem. I said we have a lot. About 60 pawns/year after setting apart the heirs quota. =9
Losing a couple of minor sources on the Normandy side would barely make a dent. Even losing all of them on the Normandy side would still leave us with something in the 45~50 pawns/year after paying the heirs (assuming between 1/4 and 1/6 of the sources are in Normandy).
And don't forget that we have sources solidly into each of the three Tribunals, and the sources on Rhine and Alps will be as much contested as the ones on Normandy. So really, steering away from Normandy does not make or vis safe. Only safer. Ish.
Joining Normandy could even be better, because we could claim the sources in Rhine and Alps actually are luctatios as defined under Normandy's peripheral code, so the conflict ceases to be between us and Alps (for example) and becomes a conflict between Normandy and Alps. And as for luctatios, we'd have the advantage in that we know what the source is and how to harvest, other Normandy covenants would only know that a source exists.
But I digress.
@Gaxxian I think your assessment of Normandy and Rhine is essentially correct (except that I don't think we'd have as much politics as you think in Normandy, nor so much less in Rhine).
If you are afraid of having nothing of interest for Alba in Normandy, don't worry, I can deal with that. XD
But, if your reasons pro Normandy are in-game only and you personally prefer Rhine, then I think we should go for Rhine (assuming Itzhak dosn't change his preferences).
Normandy is not necessarily better for Regulus. It might even be worse than the other two.