GoF Magical Obj Penetration

I know the issue was discussed before & the conclution was that the core rule book supported the fact that wards & MuMe effects to render ghosts visible needed to penetrate the MR of the creatures in order to affect it as any other magical effect needs to.

There is a magical obj in GoF that has a number of wards(p.60) without any penetration. Is this intentionnal?

There is also a magical obj that render visible ghosts with no penetration(p.132).

As I understand the rules, both these items are useless.

I stayed out of the big ward/penetration cacaphony/bruhaha but it was my impression that the book specifically stated that wards didi not need to penetrate to ward out creatures of might but did need to penetrate to ward out non-might containing people.

But an item that muto mentems ghosts into visibility would definately have extremely limited use if it had no penetration.

This is where the discussion ended last time:

I say a ward is a spell and is bound by the core rules of the 5th ed like any other spell.

Let us compare a CrIg(Re) 25 spell of Circle duration that has the effect of creating a circle of fire that runs high up and only burns when crossed(entering/exiting the circle) versus a ward again the fearies ReVi 25 circle also.

Both are hermetic spells designed from the same magic theory. In the rules, it states that wards are a special note because the creature warded aginst canot do anything to free itself directly or indirectly.

Let us pose that the faerie is inside the circle & the spell is already in effect.

When the Faerie tries go thru the fire it will make a MR test to see if it is burned. The fire spell has a penetration total that needs to go thru the farie's MR to have any effect which means the magus needs a CT of LVL+MR to go thru. Instead of going thru the fire, the Faerie pies on it which finally cuts the circle and by doing so ends the spell and is free to go. This fire spell was learned as an hermetic spell of level 25 and faced two problems, the circle could be affected by the faery and it needed to penetrate the MR of the creatures that wanted to cross it to affect it.

When the Faerie tries to leave the ward What does happen ?

I say the same thing as any other spell except that the ward has the side benefit that the faery cannot pie on it to break the circle(Which is already a very big side benefit), if the penetration of the ward penetrates the might of the faery.

The other view is to say the ward holds the Fearie up to the level of the Ward without any other considerations(No penetration required which would mean that anyone who can cast the ward has the same protection/containment force)

Now, why should wards be so much more powerfull than any other spell in core hermetic theory. Is it a breakthru?

I would very like to get to the bottom of it. I'm not forcing you into the debate...

There are almost no exceptions to the rule that a magical effect must penetrate MR in order to affect those with MR, and that Wards are no exception. :slight_smile:

It therefore appears that the assorted items in GotF are indeed in error and should have been enchanted to have Pen. Indeed, a device expected to affect beings up to some specified Might should have a Pen at least equal to that Might. (Ideally, a Pen+expected Aura vs Might+expected Aura that the dvice should win... if you expect to Ward Demons in a Magic Aura, that's Good; if you want to ward them off in an Infernal Ayra, you better pack extra Pen!)

Aegis of the Hearth is however one of the few "specials"... :wink:
(It would be embarassing if the Order's premium spell was no good against Archmagi, now, would it!)

Should this be mentioned on the Berk-list so we get official clarification from David?

if you look at the list of Moderators for this forum, it includes Himself...

Well , i did actually know that. :slight_smile:
Just that i didn't think it was [color=darkblue]Official until posted on the Berk-list.
Plus there needs to be the usual flurry of pro and con emails first.

I agree that by the RAW (Rules As Written) wards need to penetrate MR and the items are useless.
In my games, I'll make them affect beings with up to the indicated Might without needing Penetration, as a house rule.

The same goes for Intellego Vim spells to detect creatures, BTW.

Percieve the Might of the Faerie
InVi 20
R: Sight, D: Momentary, T: Individual
You are able to sense the Faerie Might of the target to within one magnitude. Generally, the spell does not need to penetrate the creature’s Magic Resistance to detect it but the SG may rule otherwise for specific creatures if he feels their nature would protect them from the magic (for example, a faerie doppleganger taking the form of another character).
(Base Base 5, +3 Sight)
Contributer: Yair.
Notes: Strictly speaking, the spell should not circumvent Magic Resistance, but this was considered more apporpriate (see for example the description of the Magic Sensitivity ability).

(From the Spells Wiki; link at my sig)

I know the Berklist has an over-inflated view of itself, but I hadn't thought anyone was fooled into believing it!

This forum is the official Atlas Games Forum; the berklist is, well, a list-of-berks (people like ... me) but nothing official at all, ever...

I would vote the other way, not because it is Written, but because of factors that I have found interesting IOS:
having to Penetrate makes the magi inventive in looking for ways to increase PenFor Faerie/Infernal Princes, I don't think it enhances the story to know their Might to within a magnitude, I think it better they remain vagueIndeed, I think it reasonable that Princes with Might can cloak themselves (in their Might) and not be spotted; if they want to make their Might obvious, they can do so - but otherwise it takes a decent Pen to forcibly detect them (to "out" them)

True. I generally don't want the players to be particularly creative when casting a general ward against demons (say), nor when trying to detect the presence of magical creatures nearby. I want the wards to be reliable and predictable and capable. I want the nearby magical creatures to be detected, that's why they're there, and if they aren't meant to be detected I'll simply rule that in their case MR applies.

Perhaps you're right. But consider a non-lord faerie with say Might 30. The magus would need an InVi casting roll of about 20 to detect his Might in my regime, and about 50 to detect it in yours. I consider the InVi 20 total more reasonable towards detecting such a creature.

Generally speaking, I agree, and would let the princes do just that. But I don't thing a marauding Wild Horseman deserves such concealment, nor the minor medow spirits.